Failure of Trojan batteries after 2 years and 9 months

[[176172]]

I understand the shore power was also connected and the batteries were also charged by whatever mains charger employed.
If, that is the case, and your analysis and contention failure due to overcharging, which source was responsible for such overcharging.

 

[noelex]

The Victron controller will not overcharge the batteries just because the mains charger has been on, on the contrary, if the mains charger is on, there is negligible output from the controller.

Paul this is not correct.

The shore charger will be in float mode. The Victron MPPT controllers will start a new charge cycle each solar day. The solar controller will supply current to the battery to raise the voltage to the absorption voltage and hold this voltage for a minimum of 1 hour at the default setting. The tail current cut off feature of the algorithm can terminate this earlier in some circumstances, but even in this case it would be more appropriate to hold a fully charged battery at the float voltage rather than raising and holding the voltage at the much higher absorption value.

This can be corrected, but the set points of the solar controller need to be changed.

The algorithm of charge controllers is not perfect. Under less than typical conditions (such as when also connected to mains battery charger with little battery draw) the shortcomings become most apparent. Batteries are reasonably tolerant devices especially to overcharging. Rather than “frying the battery” is more accurate to think about a shortened life compared to batteries that have recieved the ideal charging profile.

It is sometimes said that boat batteries do not die, they are murdered .

 

[PaulRainbow]

Paul this is not correct.

The shore charger will be in float mode. The Victron MPPT controllers will start a new charge cycle each solar day. The solar controller will supply current to the battery to raise the voltage to the absorption voltage and hold this voltage for a minimum of 1 hour at the default setting. The tail current cut off feature of the algorithm can terminate this earlier in some circumstances, but even in this case it would be more appropriate to hold a fully charged battery at the float voltage rather than raising and holding the voltage at the much higher absorption value.

This can be corrected, but the set points of the solar controller need to be changed.

The algorithm of charge controllers is not perfect. Under less than typical conditions (such as when also connected to mains battery charger with little battery draw) the shortcomings become most apparent. Batteries are reasonably tolerant devices especially to overcharging. Rather than “frying the battery” is more accurate to think about a shortened life compared to batteries that have recieved the ideal charging profile.

It is sometimes said that boat batteries do not die, they are murdered .

I have a mains charger and i have a solar controller, as do many of the boats i work on, i've yet to see any batteries in any of these installations suffer the drastic problems some people have described in this thread.

My mains charger is currently on, as is my solar controller, both have been on since the end of Summer. As i type this the mains charger is in maintenance mode, that's float voltage, 0.2a at the batteries and whatever current the boat systems require. The solar controller is at float, negligible output. My solar logs confirm that, with the mains charger on, my solar yield is almost nothing.

Once at their absorption voltage the solar charger hold the batteries at this elevated voltage for a few hours then drops them back to float. It does this every day needlessly as the shore power charger has already charged them and is holding them in a state of charge. Consequences are serious over charging and warped plates.

 

[lw395]

Sir

I understand perfectly well what Absorption is. It is not I that am putting in 4 or 5 A but the controller.

Reading Victrons Manual it states

"3.8 Battery charging information
The charge controller starts a new charge cycle every morning, when the sun starts shining.
Lead-acid batteries: default method to determine length and end of absorption
The charging algorithm behavior of MPPTs differs from AC connected battery chargers.
Please read this section of the manual carefully to understand MPPT behavior, and always
follow the recommendations of your battery manufacturer.
By default, the absorption time is determined on idle battery voltage at the start of each day
based on the following table:
EN NL FR DE ES SE Appendix
Battery voltage Vb (@start-up) Multiplier Maximum absorption time
Vb < 11,9V x 1 6h
11,9V < Vb < 12,2V x 2/3 4h
12,2V < Vb < 12,6V x 1/3 2h
Vb > 12,6V x 1/6 1h
(12V values, adjust for 24V))
Default absorption voltage: 14,4V"

On seeing 13.2 V it seeks to go into bulk mode first but never gets to absorption as it does not achieve the absorption voltage. For example on the 25th August It set itself at the bulk mode from 6am to 6pm

All the systems components are using the latest firmware and the voltages are set to Trojans recommended values.

'Absorption' is a characteristic set on the charge controller.
The charge controller is trying to get the batteries to 14.8V or whatever, it is current limited because there is a finite amount of power from the sun.
The cells have absorbed all the energy they can store. They are full. They are gassing. You are destroying them.

The 14.8V 'absorption' switching point is much too high for a battery in standby use. It is a value chosen to suit batteries in cyclic use with a significant drain between charging sessions.
You are using the controller in a wholly inappropriate situation, outside of the brief of its designers.

Read the data for your battery.
Trojan's recommmended 14.7V 'absorption' phase is a function of the first 'bulk' phase happening at a minimum of C/10, ie, the 14.7V figure is only valid when you are putting in 13A into EACH 130Ah battery.
That's about 95% charged.
A 100% charged battery will take about C/20 at 14.7V and this current will decrease as more of the plates are covered in bubbles.

IF the constant current phase is at a low current due to finite power, it needs to end at a much lower voltage to suit the battery's V/I graph at 95% charge.
4A into 390Ah is about C/100 or it was until the batteries started to die.

Your fully charged batteries should either be floated at 2.25V per cell (adjust for temperature), or left open circuit and recharged once a month or something.

 

[noelex]

As i type this the mains charger is in maintenance mode, that's float voltage, 0.2a at the batteries and whatever current the boat systems require. The solar controller is at float, negligible output.

Can you post a screen shot of your Victron app page preferably the result including a day with some sun while also connected to the mains battery chager.

If you click on the “detailed” option we will be able to see the maximum voltage.

 

[geem]

I have a mains charger and i have a solar controller, as do many of the boats i work on, i've yet to see any batteries in any of these installations suffer the drastic problems some people have described in this thread.

My mains charger is currently on, as is my solar controller, both have been on since the end of Summer. As i type this the mains charger is in maintenance mode, that's float voltage, 0.2a at the batteries and whatever current the boat systems require. The solar controller is at float, negligible output. My solar logs confirm that, with the mains charger on, my solar yield is almost nothing.

We run 760w of solar using a Victron 100/30 at 24v. We have lots of sun here so very high solar performance. With the shore power on and batteries in float when we are in a marina the Victron 100/30 will try to run the normal 3 phases of charging each day, all be it with a reduced absorption time due to the elevated morning float voltage from the shore power charger. Its all needless and damaging to the batteries so we isolate the solar and run on shorepower when in a marina. I think if you have a smaller amount of solar power and less than optimum sun angles and intensity the over charging is less obvious but it is still there. For us, it is blatantly obvious so we don't do it

 

[DuncanHall]

Running a shore charger and the Victron MPPT controllers at the same time on batteries that have little discharge will result in overcharging on the default values. This is easily fixed, the Victron controllers are very adjustable. If leaving the boat with little draw when it is connected to shore charger the parameters should be changed to be appropriate for this storage mode.

One thing to watch is new Victron software (1.42) very radically alters how the controllers work. The new charging algorithm is better but it significantly increases the chances of overcharging if the default values are unchanged. In particular the way the absorption and equalisation time is measured is very different following the software update. This results in most circumstances in a much longer absorption and equalisation time.

I suspect its the change in software that may have caused the issue. I updated in June as the new version came out.I don't believe that I had the same issue last year. It is of course possible that the batteries were starting to fail and hence the current at float was increasing.

Paul

What version of firmware is installed on your systems.


All thanks for the input. I believe the key message is to drop voltage settings to 13.2V unless the battery is expected to cycle.

 

[noelex]

What version of firmware is installed on your systems.

We have the latest firmware 1.46.

The new algorithm that was first introduced at 1.42 fixes the significant problem present in earlier versions of the software where the controller would count down the absorption time irrespective of the voltage.

The new firmware will only count down the absorption time when the absorption voltage is maintained, but as a consequence the absorption time is effectively longer, in many cases much longer. The same is true of equalisation. There is some compensation in that the new firmware no longer initiates a second 15 minute absorption cycle if the voltage drops below the re-bulk voltage as the old firmware did, but this still leaves a significantly longer total absorption time.

The bottom line is that the new firmware causes the controller to behave very differently so it is important to reassess the absorption time setting if you want the optimum charge profile.

As well as the changes in the way the controller behaves, the 1.42 firmware update allows for far more user adjustability in how the controller operates. Tail current can now be disabled, as can the adaptive absorption time. Also the equalisation cycle is now more adjustable, as is the re-bulk voltage.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Can you post a screen shot of your Victron app page preferably the result including a day with some sun while also connected to the mains battery chager.

If you click on the “detailed” option we will be able to see the maximum voltage.

I told you what i was seeing, i see no need to supply photographic evidence. I'm perfectly aware of how to read the voltages, thanks very much.

What an arrogant, condescending post !!!

 

[dom]

We have the latest firmware 1.46.

The new algorithm that was first introduced at 1.42 fixes the significant problem present in earlier versions of the software where the controller would count down the absorption time irrespective of the voltage.

The new firmware will only count down the absorption time when the absorption voltage is maintained, but as a consequence the absorption time is effectively longer, in many cases much longer. The same is true of equalisation. There is some compensation in that the new firmware no longer initiates a second 15 minute absorption cycle if the voltage drops below the re-bulk voltage as the old firmware did, but this still leaves a significantly longer total absorption time.

The bottom line is that the new firmware causes the controller to behave very differently so it is important to reassess the absorption time setting if you want the optimum charge profile.

As well as the changes in the way the controller behaves, the 1.42 firmware update allows for far more user adjustability in how the controller operates. Tail current can now be disabled, as can the adaptive absorption time. Also the equalisation cycle is now more adjustable, as is the re-bulk voltage.

I never knew that; do you happen to know when v1.42 was introduced?

 

[noelex]

I told you what i was seeing, i see no need to supply photographic evidence. I'm perfectly aware of how to read the voltages, thanks very much.

What an arrogant, condescending post !!!

Paul, I am sorry you took my post that way. No offence was intended, so please accept my apologies for upsetting you.

You have not posted the maximum voltages in this thread, as far as I can see.

A screenshot of the app does provide this, as well as a lot of other information about what is happening to your battery charging.

I would expect the Victron controller is raising the voltage to the absorption setting on batteries that have already been charged to 100% by the main’s charger. It will do this every day (at least when there is some sun). In some systems this voltage will be maintained for the default one hour (this depends on whether or not the tail current parameters are met). Once again this will be shown on the app.

I would argue (as other have said in the thread ) that this is not an optimum charging algorithm for a battery that is already 100% charged (which it should be if the main’s charger is doing its job), at least over the long term. I believe your contention that the Victron MPPT controller will never overcharge the batteries when a main’s charger is connected is not accurate. The details contained in a screenshot of the app help show exactly what is occurring in your case.

 

[noelex]

I never knew that; do you happen to know when v1.42 was introduced?

The 1.42 firmware was released in October 2019.

 

[DuncanHall]

The 1.42 firmware was released in October 2019.

No Victrons changelog is

v1.46 – 11 October 2019
Released for all HW versions.

Change:
- Absorption time counter start to be incremented now when the battery voltage (or charger voltage when external sensor is not applied - i.e. BMV or Smart Battery Sense) is 200mV (for 12V, scalable to 24V/36V/48V systems) below the absorption setpoint. That threshold was 50mV on the previous version. This was changed to avoid extending too much the absorption stage.
- Off reason information added to the text protocol (OR tag).

v1.45 – 11 October 2019
Released only for SmartSolar VE.Direct models, except for:
- SmartSolar Charger MPPT 150/85 – Product ID 0xA052
- SmartSolar Charger MPPT 150/100 – Product ID 0xA051
For all other models (BlueSolars), v1.42/v1.43 is still the latest version.

Change:
- Fixed a bug found on the internal temperature measurement that lead to not being able to de-rate the output current due to a high temperature nor triggering the over temperature protection. (Bug introduced on v1.30)


v1.43 – 8 July 2019
Released only for four models below. For all other models, v1.42 is still the latest version:
- BlueSolar Charger MPPT 75/50 – Product ID 0xA040
- BlueSolar Charger MPPT 150/35 – Product ID 0xA041
- BlueSolar Charger MPPT 100/30 – Product ID 0xA044
- BlueSolar Charger MPPT 100/50 – Product ID 0xA045

Change:
- Fixed a bug on history day change. Day time counter was not reset after a day change on those models, causing a day change to be triggered every minute after 24hrs of charging.


v1.42 – 24 June 2019
Important: upgrading the SmartSolar models, not the BlueSolar models, is a one-way trip, you cannot go back to an older firmware version once you upgrade to v1.42. Reverting to older firmware gives error 116 (calibration data lost), this can be fixed by re-installing the v1.42 firmware.

This changelog describes the changes compared to v1.39. The intermediate versions, v1.40 and v1.41 were cancelled.

Charge algorithm improvements
- The Lithium battery rotary switch preset has been changed. Absorption time is fixed to 2 hours, and it will not stop on low tail current.
- The re-bulk voltage was lowered from 13.7V to 13.4V (for all battery types).
- Added four new settings. Note that for now they can only be programmed using the SmartControl Display. VictronConnect will be updated to support these new settings soon.
1. Adjustable tail current (changeover from absorption to float).
2. Adjustable re-bulk offset voltage (changeover from float to bulk).
3. Adjustable automatic equalization parameters (current / duration).
4. Choose between adaptive- and fixed- absorption time. The adaptive mode is the method that has always been in the algorithm. It adapts the time to the battery voltage as seen in the morning. The fixed absorption time is what it says it is: a fixed time. No multipliers related to voltage in the morning. Setting absorption time to fixed does not disable the tail current mechanism: disable that too to get a 100% fixed absorption time. Note that we advise to not use fixed absorption times for lead batteries.
- Fixed bug that caused the charge state to move to Absorption, 200mV “to early”: before reaching the absorption voltage level. It did still charge up to the absorption voltage; but already showed Absorption & started the timer. Now; it shows Bulk right up to where it should.
- Fixed bug that caused the charge algorithm to reset (and re-evaluate battery voltage to determine the absorption time) almost immediately when the voltage on the PV terminals dropped 2V below the battery voltage. In other words, a situation where there was totally no power any more on the array, for example when mounted on an RV and driving under an over-pass. The reset could lead to a too short absorption time. This has been fixed, by adding a delay of one hour: the charger restarts (and redetermines the absorption time based on battery voltage) only after the PV has dropped 2V below the battery during one hour.
- Stop counting down on the absorption timer when there is (temporarily) not enough PV power available to maintain the voltage at the absorption level. Previously, the absorption time kept counting; even though the voltage was not at the absorption level. Note that the history module might show a larger absorption time value compared to the maximum absorption time setting, as we extend the absorption phase as long as the absorption voltage cannot be maintained.

Other improvements
- Improved the way settings are stored for the SmartSolar chargers. Before this improvement, an interrupted firmware update could in certain special cases made them be resetted to default. Not anymore for the SmartSolar chargers. Unfortunately it is not possible to add the same improvement for the BlueSolar Chargers.
- Added PAYG, or Pay as you go” feature to the SmartSolar models. When set to PAYG mode, a charger operates based on time-bound tokens: it ceases operation after the last token expires, to only restart once a new valid token is entered. The feature can be used for both internet connected PAYG systems as well as non-connected systems. For more information about our PAYG features and offerings, contact sales@victronenergy.com.
- Fixed bug in the 30 day history data log: the charger used to decide that it was already the next day when a dip in the PV power occurred.
- Improved how the 30 day history is affected by a firmware update.
- Streetlight: fixed bug that caused LED drivers using PWM dimming to flash during the day.
- No longer show “External Control” as the charge state showing (for example on a GX Device, VRM and in VictronConnect) when the charger is being current limited only. It now properly shows the real state, ie. Bulk, Absorption or Float. The "External Control" is now only shown when the charge voltage is controlled remotely, disabling the internal charge algorithm. For example in an ESS system or when installed with intelligent CAN-bus connected batteries. More information about his in the GX Device manual, DVCC chapter.

SmartSolar Control Display
- All readings related to temperature will be shown in 1 degree resolution, adjustments in the settings can be made in 1 degree steps.
- Time settings (absorption and equalisation time) can be set to 0 and increments of 0.5 hours (was 1 hour).
- If the charge voltage is controlled externally the display shows 'REMOTE' (previously 'ESS').
- The messages 'REMOTE' or 'BMS' no longer pop to the foreground as requested on the community.
- Add setting 19 (adaptive mode): value 0 or 1
- Add setting 21 (tail current): value between 0 and max in 1A steps
- Add setting 28 (re-bulk offset voltage): value between 0.01 and 5.2 in 0.01V steps
- Add setting 40 (maximum equalisation time): value between 1 and 24 in 0.5hour steps
- Add setting 41 (auto equalisation stop on voltage): value 0 or 1
- Add setting 42 (equalisation current percentage): value between 0 and 100 in 1% steps.

Known issues:
- The history mechanism inserts spurious day events on the models listed in the table below. The effect is that the history data is empty after a few days of operation.

 

[noelex]

Thanks for the great summary of the firmware changes.

It looks like 1.42 was released earlier than I thought. I checked the date I updated and it was actually September 2019, perhaps the Apple updates are behind the Android version, or I may have simply missed the release.

Anyway, it is worth the upgrade, but be prepared for significant changes in the important transition when the controller decides to drop from absorption to float voltage.

 

[lw395]

Thanks for the great summary of the firmware changes.

It looks like 1.42 was released earlier than I thought. I checked the date I updated and it was actually September 2019, perhaps the Apple updates are behind the Android version, or I may have simply missed the release.

Anyway, it is worth the upgrade, but be prepared for significant changes in the important transition when the controller decides to drop from absorption to float voltage.

I think the firmware changes are unhelpful detail.
Fundamentally these units are unsuitable for batteries in storage, and the state machine decisions are poor when the solar power available is small in relation to the battery capacity.

I don't think this is unique to Victron products though.

 

[noelex]

I think the firmware changes are unhelpful detail.
Fundamentally these units are unsuitable for batteries in storage, and the state machine decisions are poor when the solar power available is small in relation to the battery capacity.

I don't think this is unique to Victron products though.

I agree that with the default settings the Victron solar controllers generally do a reasonably poor job of looking after batteries that are in storage with minimal discharge, especially when a battery charger is also connected.

However, the Victron controllers are very adjustable. There is plenty of scope for altering the charge parameters to select a very suitable charge profile.

 

[lw395]

I agree that with the default settings the Victron solar controllers generally do a reasonably poor job of looking after batteries that are in storage with minimal discharge, especially when a battery charger is also connected.

However, the Victron controllers are very adjustable. There is plenty of scope for altering the charge parameters to select a very suitable charge profile.

Or you could just turn the damned thing off, then you wouldn't need to reprogram anything when you next start using the boat?

It's actually never easy leaving a bunch of lead acid batteries unattended for long periods without some sort of human supervision.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Or you could just turn the damned thing off, then you wouldn't need to reprogram anything when you next start using the boat?

It's actually never easy leaving a bunch of lead acid batteries unattended for long periods without some sort of human supervision.

Easy enough if you fit decent kit and set it up properly.

Mine have been on constant charge for four years and they are only cheap sealed SLA batteries.

 

[dom]

Easy enough if you fit decent kit and set it up properly.

Mine have been on constant charge for four years and they are only cheap sealed SLA batteries.

Not at all sure about the first point.

But re the second, on average, or even as a max, how often do you leave the batteries unattended when both charging systems are active, i.e. in summer if referencing solar in the U.K.?

 

[PaulRainbow]

Not at all sure about the first point.

But re the second, on average, or even as a max, how often do you leave the batteries unattended when both charging systems are active, i.e. in summer if referencing solar in the U.K.?

During the Summer the mains charger is off, unless there are a few really dull days and solar doesn't keep up. At other times the mains charger and the solar charging are both on (the solar is on 24/365).

Doesn't matter if i'm there or not, the charging regime is the same.