Factory Refurbs

[BruceK]

Can't argue with that.
I was just saying that potentially, the 80% loss never ends.
After all, maybe also for the first owner the pleasure was worth the cost, even if higher in absolute terms, who knows...?

I think the pleasure is always there no matter what. Certainly the pride of ownership and with the luxurious nature of the prestige brands must be worthwhile for the new owner. Is it repeatable though? Every edition has to excede the last and so the expense climbs up and up. Surely that bubble is has got to burst. If I bought a predator 10 years ago, I'd want something more now, that is just the way it works. It's taking the hit that has to hurt. I thought long and hard before getting my boat, I was perfectly happy with a 20 foot cuddy. Sure it's cheap, but in it's class it's OK.
It's a early mid 90's Formula 34PC. Not a helluva lot different to the popular Sealine S34's. But the Sealine S34's of that era go for £85k. I looked at SS's portafino's and Offshores of comparable age and was distinctly unimpressed. It just boggled my mind. What extra comfort, sea keeping, speciality, does having a Sealine / SS etc give that is worth 60k more? And dont tell me quality or build. On that score Ari is quite right.

 

[Portofino]

Or could lay off blokes when it's quiet ----
And NOT support your dealer network re sympathetic P-ex price against a bigger newy..
Keeps the bean counters and helps confuse the bank maybee for a while

 

[BruceK]

Bruce K -what would describe the above as ?

Nice polish job, now show me the guts. Sorry mate, no disrespect, that's detailing not refurb. I could do that to my 20 year old boat. Won't make sods difference to the fact, it's 20 years old with 20 years of use. Polishing my shoes dont make them new. Just good looking.

 

[Portofino]

What more could they do ? I paid 40% less than new and it did not canabalise from new back then 2005 -no stock boats all made to order -new bellows of course

Below -carpet covers on rest new -you would struggle to buy the curtains , seats, even the cushion on E-Bay
Back then as I said easy peasy -blokes just slopes off to warehouse

Towl -agree e-bay poss? Even the shower pipe was new -ok B+Q -attention to detail

New bog seat -yup don,t have to mess about waste your life on e-bay returning wrong fitting part

 

[Medskipper]

I don't understand your maths but the refurb option would need to add value to the boat. what we're seeing at present is some fantastic boats that are becoming virtually worthless when over 10 years old - almost displosable. That can't be right the engines and hulls are good for 20-30 years.

Totally agree, I've been boating over 30 years and I've never lost money on a boat! Even when I've owned it for more than ten years! I'm a hands on person so it's fair to say I've spent time on getting a boat how I want it, but at the end of the day when I've sold I've always got my money back. I had an old Seamaster once kept it six years and sold it for 10k more than I paid six years before! I'm not taking into account inflation though.
Buy a boat that looks a bit run down, spend some time getting your hands dirty and reap the rewards. Forget cheque book boating!

 

[BruceK]

Is suppose there is cosmetically looking like new, everything working and anything clearly out of date replaced ( old TVs, Nav Kit etc), knackered bits ( carpet) type refurbs so that to the naked eye it seems new and deeper mechanical refurbs.

In my view the former is realistic. The latter in terms of re-engining and so on means that in many ( but not all I accept) the thing is towards the end of its useful life as the numbers will never come close to squaring, and you are better off looking for a newer boat with the difference in cost.

If you look at the Sunseeker on the other thread it has not really aged that much, so once visually immaculate, up to date TVs and so on there is not that much to separate it from its newer counterparts - other than low price, lower depreciation and most likely higher running costs.

Absolutely. 100% agree with this. However, this makes it more desirable to sell, does it increase value? I don't thinks so. Maybe it's just me. But any refurb of that nature does not have any intrinsic value apart from the immediate sell. It's not carried forward. Most people who buy second hand embark to some greater or lesser degree to refurbishment. I have flat screen tv's and Blue Rays in my 20 year old boat. Does this increase it's value? Hell no. Just nicer to have than CRT.

 

[BruceK]

What more could they do ? I paid 40% less than new and it did not canabalise from new back then 2005

There you go. You are on my page. 40% less than new for a 2 year old boat? With factory detailing and a few add ons? Now tell me buyer one wasn't bent over a barrel and humped for his vanity?

Lovely boat btw. No denying it's prestige status.

 

[BruceK]

Totally agree, I've been boating over 30 years and I've never lost money on a boat! Even when I've owned it for more than ten years! I'm a hands on person so it's fair to say I've spent time on getting a boat how I want it, but at the end of the day when I've sold I've always got my money back. I had an old Seamaster once kept it six years and sold it for 10k more than I paid six years before! I'm not taking into account inflation though.
Buy a boat that looks a bit run down, spend some time getting your hands dirty and reap the rewards. Forget cheque book boating!

I think it's safe to say you didn't buy a predator then and equally not taking inflation into account is hardly fair. A early Portofino when new back in the start would have cost me £20k. I could sell one now for marginally more than that if in good running order and claim to have made a profit too. And that's also 30 years.

 

[Portofino]

There you go. You are on my page. 40% less than new for a 2 year old boat? With factory detailing and a few add ons? Now tell me buyer one wasn't bent over a barrel and humped for his vanity?

Lovely boat btw. No denying it's prestige status.

Was bought to fit the mooring
I would like to say --- there's never a shortage of men queuing to buy a new boat and bend over the barrel

Prob IS a real shortage now

10 Y ago our UK big 4 just carried on inflating the bubble .
This makes that Pred56 as an example -a bargain + drip in £10 pa over the next 3-4 years to re-furb and update .

 

[Portofino]

Here's my latest refurb done at the Apreamare factory in Naples ( Itama production under Ferretti now glacial pace )

Some "guts" new risers along with fuel pipes, Racor 900's bilge pumps , complete engine service and much more +++

 

[BruceK]

True enough. I've hogged this thread enough for now. I'm just glad that as a working schlebb the lack of a bouyant 2nd hand market has allowed me a sliver of the Monte Carlo set because at 100k salary I'm never going to afford new. Not good news for the big 4. However I feel if they took a leaf out of the American manufacturer books they might have been more bouyant. But then that would be like asking TVR or Ferrari to make a family hatchback to add to their line.

Edit. My refurb, recon parts and antifoul. Oh and new canopy and vinyl to come

 

[jfm]

...men queuing to buy a new boat and bend over the barrel

This barrel is in the imagination of the beholder. Used boat buyers see the first guy pay £2m or whatever and sell for £1m or whatever and think he has been bent over a barrel, and aren't they clever for buying a 3yr old minter @ £1m. That is a valid view if you're looking through the second guy's lens, and second guy is indeed clever/smart. But the first guy doesn't want a used boat. He has the £2m and takes pleasure from buying his new boat exactly how he wants it and couldn't care less about dropping a million for a few years of fun. There is no barrel in the world seen through his lens. He doesn't accept that the second guy (who is smart, don't get me wrong) is smarter because first guy doesn't think you measure smartness by getting the minimum depreciation on your boat (otherwise he too would buy a used boat; he must be smart enough because he has the money to buy 2 used boats).

So it's really lenses for courses. And there are 100 different lenses (3rd hand, 4th hand, 100 footer, 15 footer, £2m, £200k, £20k...). Trouble is there aren't enough people with any type of lens wanting to buy the current output of boats at the price points that PrinSeekFair are offering them. The builders have completely misunderstood the demand curve/price elasticity, and the bigger social picture/trends/desirability of owning a boat. When a 40 footer was £200k and is now £500k or whatever, you're not going to get a mere 20% drop off in sales. If you'd kept it at £200k you'd have got a 20% drop off because the underlying macro trend is that the popularity of big boating is falling not rising AOTBE

Sunseeker will muddle on with a deep pocketed corporate owner. Fairline look set to take some medicine of whatever restructure/debt shedding process happens. The big question is what will Princess do. The financial owner is @7 years and there's no profitable exit looming large. They can't keep chucking in £10 million or whatever every year. They have to do something big. I don't know what they will do but I have popcorn

 

[BruceK]

I'm not trying to be smart. If I was maybe I could afford 2 million. Just pointing out the huge depreciation and lack of bouyant market in relation to the question of refurbishment. As I said the very essence of luxury and prestige almost demands extravagance and associated cost. It's a prize in itself, but that ''lense'' is not one that's easily sold second hand because there is no intrinsic value to it.

 

[petem]

Portofino's got where I'm coming from.

There must be people who can't or won't spend £1.5 mil (or whatever on a 60 foot Squadron). Equally there are few people who will buy a 15 year Squadron 59, even if it is only £100k. My question is whether there is a market for a £250k Factory refurbed 59 footer. Yeah I know it will be dated but it could still yield a decade of fun and a factory backed refurb would give a lot of peace of mind. £1.5m and £250k buyers are completely different markets.

 

[petem]

I would say the Oppersite Mike --- think about it
You normally churn out 150 upwards boats /pa with over 1000 staff .
You have a shed full of soft stuff ,fender, warps ,cushions, carpet ,bed spreads, Royal Doulton plates + cutlery , fire extinguisher . Towels + polo shirts logo,d . And anything else not screwed down on a "new" boat .
You also have a in house trimming team knocking out beige leather uphosltry for 12-15 - boats per month .
You also have a dedicated finishing shead where boats after being floated ( ck for weeps -leaks ) / finished on the water are lifted and antifouled / polished ready for final sign off .
So tarting up a used boat for re- sale ie refinishing should be a doddle.
If its really busy the Forman hires East Europeans on short term contracts ex union .

Yep - not to mention that the builder has the original CAD files and may even still employ the guys that made the boat in the first place. I can't think of a better way of taking up slack in your production line.

 

[Portofino]

This barrel is in the imagination of the beholder. Used boat buyers see the first guy pay £2m or whatever and sell for £1m or whatever and think he has been bent over a barrel, and aren't they clever for buying a 3yr old minter @ £1m. That is a valid view if you're looking through the second guy's lens, and second guy is indeed clever/smart. But the first guy doesn't want a used boat. He has the £2m and takes pleasure from buying his new boat exactly how he wants it and couldn't care less about dropping a million for a few years of fun. There is no barrel in the world seen through his lens. He doesn't accept that the second guy (who is smart, don't get me wrong) is smarter because first guy doesn't think you measure smartness by getting the minimum depreciation on your boat (otherwise he too would buy a used boat; he must be smart enough because he has the money to buy 2 used boats).

So it's really lenses for courses. And there are 100 different lenses (3rd hand, 4th hand, 100 footer, 15 footer, £2m, £200k, £20k...). Trouble is there aren't enough people with any type of lens wanting to buy the current output of boats

Agree With above re Bruce K,s barrel analogy
But on a smart o meter would the first guy be better off spending most of his £2M on a used bigger arguably better boat -
Keeping some £ back for a minor refurb to get it " exactly how he wants it "
Taking advantage of all the attributes of an extra x M brings
X being 10 ,15' ,20 or whatever to make a real difference ?

The industry needs more new buyers and is not interested or cares in there motivation .
Our big 3 will not place a lottery winner of footballer on the smart o meter .

 

[petem]

The more knackered it is the bigger the bill. Woodwork, seat covers etc. and the bills mount up.

How expensive is woodwork to make when you've already paid for the machinery and have all the CAD files? Yeah I know you have to give it a million coats of lacquer but if you've got staff not fully stretched then your only cost is the raw materials and the electricity to run the machines.

As for seat covers, if you're already buying in bulk you should be able to make a turn on the cost.

And all the time you're sending out the message that you build boats to last.

 

[BruceK]

That last sentence makes for a very compelling case to be fair.

 

[jfm]

...because there is no intrinsic value to it.

Of course there is value. This is recreational spend, so the value is in the pleasure. Does a theatre ticket have no intrinsic value? It doesn't matter that it has zero value the next day.

 

[Whitelighter]

True enough. I've hogged this thread enough for now. I'm just glad that as a working schlebb the lack of a bouyant 2nd hand market has allowed me a sliver of the Monte Carlo set because at 100k salary I'm never going to afford new. Not good news for the big 4. However I feel if they took a leaf out of the American manufacturer books they might have been more bouyant. But then that would be like asking TVR or Ferrari to make a family hatchback to add to their line.

Edit. My refurb, recon parts and antifoul. Oh and new canopy and vinyl to come

Got any pics of the interior