Expensive Osmosis

[CFarr]

Been advised by my surveyor on a yacht we are currently at the 'Under Offer' stage on that she is in need of osmosis treatment for a significant number of blisters over approx 70% of the hull below waterline.
He reckoned on £6k to £8k but all the quotes I'm getting in are for £8k + vat and higher!
Yacht is a 36 footer and after searching these hallowed forums it seems members seem to think that £8k is a rip off and that £5k would be about right. No mention of any companies though.
So does anyone actually know of anywhere that does the treatment for about £5k? or is that just a figure imagined to be about right?

Undecided on whether to go ahead with the boat as yet, depends on what solution the owner comes up with but any helpful 'pointing in the right direction' could be helpful.
Nice boat though with a lot going for her hence not immediately walking.

 

[dombuckley]

Where is the vessel concerned?

A client of mine is currently having the bottom of his 33 foot motorsailer stripped, dried out and re-gelcoated at the workshop at Lowestoft Haven marina. Quoted£2500+VAT.

 

[maby]

It's not a death sentence for a yacht but, since you haven't committed to buying it yet, why try to fix it on the cheap? It's making you think twice about buying it and if you sell it in a few years and the next surveyor is unhappy about the hull condition, you may have to drop the price quite a lot. If you like the boat, get a quote for doing a really good job of it and use that in negotiations over the price.

When it's your boat, you may try to do things "on the cheap" - this is not your boat yet and you should be factoring in the cost of doing it very well!

 

[CFarr]

It's not a death sentence for a yacht but, since you haven't committed to buying it yet, why try to fix it on the cheap? It's making you think twice about buying it and if you sell it in a few years and the next surveyor is unhappy about the hull condition, you may have to drop the price quite a lot. If you like the boat, get a quote for doing a really good job of it and use that in negotiations over the price.

When it's your boat, you may try to do things "on the cheap" - this is not your boat yet and you should be factoring in the cost of doing it very well!

Yes, I agree. I'm not really after a cheap job, It's more that I don't want someone getting away with ripping us off.

The boat is in Plymouth but will be moved to Scotland so anywhere West of Southampton would be good (which rules out Lowestoft unfortunately).

 

[Rivers & creeks]

Yes, I agree. I'm not really after a cheap job, It's more that I don't want someone getting away with ripping us off.

The boat is in Plymouth but will be moved to Scotland so anywhere West of Southampton would be good (which rules out Lowestoft unfortunately).

How can you get ripped off? Get a quote from the best yard in the area and unless the vendor gives that off the boat then walk away. You aren't immune from having a repeat of the problem so any attempt to 'split the cost' is a crazy idea. Once the boat is yours then you may choose never to do the work, put the saved purchase price money in the bank and be ready to sell for that much less. Seeing as you don't live anywhere near the boat or where it's going to I would suggest walking away, this is a job you want to see done properly through regular inspection and control the costs.

 

[smth448]

Don't worry unduly about it. You are in a very strong position as the potential buyer. Speak to the surveyor and ascertain how bad the damage actually is. I doubt very much that it is so bad to render the boat unseaworthy so no reason to walk away. Find out how much it will cost to get the repairs completed and deduct this plus the cost of being without the boat for a season. Fixing osmosis is not a fast job. If the vendor won't knock that from the cost of the boat, then walk away. There are plenty of other boats around.
If he agrees then buy the boat, take it up to Scotland and sail it for this summer. Find out all the little improvements you want to make during this year. Once you have the boat start finding local quotes to get the osmosis fixed. At the end of this season get the boat out of the water and get the osmosis treated. At the same time you can fix all those little thing you identify during the year.

 

[maby]

Yes, I agree. I'm not really after a cheap job, It's more that I don't want someone getting away with ripping us off.

The boat is in Plymouth but will be moved to Scotland so anywhere West of Southampton would be good (which rules out Lowestoft unfortunately).

While I wouldn't just say "walk away", you really do need to think carefully about what you are going to do. It's a buyers market at the moment, so you don't need to go taking chances with your money.

How old is the boat? What is it and what is the asking price? GRP technology has got a lot better since the days when osmosis was a serious problem, so I assume it is not a young boat. If it is five or ten years old, then there is something seriously wrong. If it's twenty years old and worth a few tens of thousands, then £8k+vat is a significant fraction of the value of the boat and you need to be protecting yourself.

Most twenty year old boats will have a few bubbles, but significant blisters over 70% of the hull is a lot. There will be others who tell you that it is nothing to worry about and no boat has ever sunk due to osmosis - and that is true, but plenty of boats have been difficult to sell due to osmosis. If the price is good and you seriously expect to keep it for a long time, go ahead and get a budget job done - the boat will work fine for many years. But if you think you may want to sell it again in the next few years, negotiate a price that covers getting it done very well by a reputable yard and make sure you have good evidence of the work done in order to satisfy the next purchaser!

We went through a similar decision process a couple of years ago when we came close to buying a second hand Bavaria only to discover that it had been run aground and the keel joint was leaking. I wanted the keel dropped, cleaned and rebedded at a cost of several thousands, but the seller just wanted to torque it down hard with a large spanner. We walked away and it was still on the market eighteen months later.

 

[[70521]]

she is in need of osmosis treatment for a significant number of blisters over approx 70% of the hull below waterline.

I'd get my coat...

Thousands of boats out there.

 

[CFarr]

I'd get my coat...

Thousands of boats out there.

Only reason I'm not walking immediately is that rest of boat is sound and comes at a very, very competitive price.
Even with paying for the treatment and an upgrade refit she's still good value if we had to sell.
There certainly ain't thousands of boats out there that I want and can afford, I've just had another look!
This one ticks most of the boxes for me of any of the boats I've seen up to date.

I'll probably be going ahead with the purchase depending on the owners views on re-negotiating but just wanted to check treatment costs and recommendations.

There are lots of posts in previous threads that state '£6k to £8k is a rip off'. I just wanted to find out if anyone knew of a reputable yard that wasn't a rip off.
People above seem to think I'm after a cheap job because I don't want ripping off?
Not the case. If it costs £8k then it costs £8k and I'm happy to do a deal based on that.

 

[maby]

Only reason I'm not walking immediately is that rest of boat is sound and comes at a very, very competitive price.
Even with paying for the treatment and an upgrade refit she's still good value if we had to sell.
There certainly ain't thousands of boats out there that I want and can afford, I've just had another look!
This one ticks most of the boxes for me of any of the boats I've seen up to date.

I'll probably be going ahead with the purchase depending on the owners views on re-negotiating but just wanted to check treatment costs and recommendations.

There are lots of posts in previous threads that state '£6k to £8k is a rip off'. I just wanted to find out if anyone knew of a reputable yard that wasn't a rip off.
People above seem to think I'm after a cheap job because I don't want ripping off?
Not the case. If it costs £8k then it costs £8k and I'm happy to do a deal based on that.

I don't know about others, but I'm certainly not making assumptions about you being mean with the repair bills.

I would just suggest that you look at the viewpoint of the various people that have been describing bills of £6k and more as a rip off. Osmosis is a strange thing in commercial terms. It is almost always purely cosmetic - I've never heard of a boat sinking or being scrapped because of it. As a result of this, the way in which you approach it depends very much on your circumstances. If you already own the boat, are sailing on a budget, and are not too worried about getting the best possible performance out of the boat, you will probably do a cheap job of it - sand it all down, whack on a couple of coats of epoxy plus several coats of antifouling and enjoy another year of perfectly good sailing. If you pay a yard a couple of grand to fix it, they probably will not do much more than that themselves - they would charge you quite a few hundreds just to clean and antifoul a boat that size.

You are not in that position - unless you choose to put yourself into it. That puts a different complexion onto whether or not £6k to £8k is a rip off. A top quality professional osmosis treatment includes stripping back all the effected gelcoat, drying out the underlying GRP for a period of weeks (or even months) in a climate controlled environment, applying new gelcoat, preparing the new surface, epoxying it and applying new antifoul. At the end of that process, you effectively have a new boat that will last many years, but it is not a cheap process and I can well believe quotes of £8k+ for a 36 foot boat.

So, it's up to you really - if you spend a weekend with a good sander, loads of epoxy and several coats of good antifoul, you will leave it looking ok for two or three years and it will sail almost as well as it would after you have paid some yard £8k to strip the gelcoat and replace it all. However, if you try to sell it in two or three years time, you run the risk of finding yourself in the same position as the current owner - and you may not find another buyer as willing as you to accept a low cost job.

 

[Jim@sea]

You should consider what you are going to do with the boat once you have the work done. Will you be the sort of person who lifts the boat out of the water for 6 months in the winter, thus allowing the hull to "dry out" (or a respite from constant immersion) or will you have the boat constantly in the water, only lifting out every couple of years to anti-foul. The reason I mention this is that I once bought a boat (1973, 33ft Motor Sailor) which had received "Osmosis Treatment" and it had returned 3 years later. Are the people who are quoting £8k going to give a 10 year Guarantee and the people quoting less have a lower period of Guarantee.
You should also remember that even if you pay your £8k and get a long guarantee from someone on the South Coast and you take the boat to Scotland and in 6 years time you notice "bubbles" will they say "Bring it back" and how do you factor in the cost of taking it back.
If I was having to pay £8k for a boat that needed Osmosis Treatment I would far rather pay an extra £10k for a similar boat that has not needed treatment.
The boat I had bought in 1982 was a 1973 yacht, it had the hull treated and painted when the boat was only 6 years old and it came through again 3 years later. That boat is now 40 years old, I wonder how many time the hull has been treated since ?.

 

[fisherman]

They used to reckon about £100 a foot, a little more now. Level of damage largely depends on the build: my boat has blisters all over, but given the scantlings (Cygnus workboat from 1976) it's not excited the surveyor at all. However, the depth of damage is directly related to blister diameter, big dia + thin hull = problem. It is possible to DIY, there are roving gelcoat strippers about, you would need to get it in the dry, steam clean after stripping and recoat at controlled temp. Will your ins. co cover it until it's fixed? Have a chat with the osmosis treatment guy at Gweek boatyard, been doing it for 20 years.

 

[Tranona]

A big chunk of the cost - and £8k+ may not be a rip off is in labour and storage plus lifting. Lifting and storage can easily cost £2k of that. There are many different ways of dealing with osmosis so just making straight comparisons on paper is not necessarily the best thing. You need detail of the work that is actually proposed and the materials used to make a reasonable assessment as to whether it is a good price or not.

There is a lot to be said for negotiating a reduction - the owner will probably be pleased to pass the problem onto you. It is unreasonable to expect the whole amount as it is enhancing the boat, but some split near 50/50 would be reasonable. Then as suggested sail the boat for a year and decide how to treat it, and have it done in haul out time so that you minimise the storage element and don't lose time sailing. You may even consider doing part of it yourself to reduce labour costs.

Like you I don't go with "there are plenty of other boats out there" - yes lots of boats for sale but when you get through the selection process against your requirements the number suitable shrinks rapidly. So the decision here is as you outlined - the boat is close to what you want and you are aware of the problem, which can be fixed - so go for it.

 

[jonic]

The first boat I bought had Osmosis. Much to the shock and disappointment of the poor seller.

I had been looking for ages but everything else was good so I bought her.

She took me happily across the Atlantic and up and down the Caribbean.

The worst blisters got treated individually. We never did have to do the full repair because Hurricane Ivan took care of that!

There are lots of boats for sale at the moment...............but not lots of the right type.

If she is good and ticks all the boxes, and is already underpriced I would negotiate a fair discount and go for it too.

6-8k for the job sounds about right but you shouldn't really expect the seller to pay in full for betterment.

 

[CFarr]

Thank you all for your opinions, it certainly makes one think about the problem from every angle when posing a question on here, even answers to questions that weren't asked
I'm in negotiations for a reduction and will go for it if acceptable.
I believe a share of the costs is fair too.
I have already initiated the possibility of having the work done after this season so that I get use of the boat this year and then get the work done along with her refit ready for next season.
Thanks again for all the thought provoking replies.

 

[TimBennet]

Falmouth is west of Plymouth.

I would contact Paul Kerridge ( www.paulkerridge.co.uk ) and take his advice on what to do and where in Falmouth it would be best to do it.

Although he's now a surveyor with a specialist knowledge of osmosis, he is more importantly, one who has been 'on the tools' as they say down here, ie he knows about osmosis in both theory and practice having run a treatment company himself.

I would then have him act as your local agent to ensure that the prescribed treatment is followed to the letter.

 

[superheat6k]

Thank you all for your opinions, it certainly makes one think about the problem from every angle when posing a question on here, even answers to questions that weren't asked
I'm in negotiations for a reduction and will go for it if acceptable.
I believe a share of the costs is fair too.
I have already initiated the possibility of having the work done after this season so that I get use of the boat this year and then get the work done along with her refit ready for next season.
Thanks again for all the thought provoking replies.

Not sure why or where 'fairness' comes into it. Was the osmotic condition mentioned in the particulars of sale or was it clearly mentioned in your preliminary enquiries, or was this a discovery by your surveyor.

If the former then it would be fair to accept you knew of it when making an offer, and therefore the offer should have accounted for this defect, although you are of course entitled to withdraw if the extent has been found significantly worse at urvey, as sounds the case. If not it is a non disclosed defect, and as such IMHO solely for the vendor to swallow a signifucant reduction to your offer, and not just the repair, but also for the inconvenience to you, and CERTAIN difficulty you will have when it is your turn to sell - osmosis corrected or not.

You are not obliged to buy, and from read your posts I do get a feeling that you have the rose tinted specs on.

Be aware that certain surveyors have almost single handedly created the osmosis myth, but that won't help you sell the boat on. Certainly a report of 'osmosis' provides a lovely excuse for would be cold footed buyers to have a convenient reason to avoid their commitments to complete a sale.

 

[Rivers & creeks]

6-8k for the job sounds about right but you shouldn't really expect the seller to pay in full for betterment.

How is osmosis treatment betterment? It's not like replacing an engine, the boat wasn't advertised with osmosis and the hull is defective which cost the purchaser hundreds to find out. Betterment is surely an entirely different scenario?

 

[jonic]

How is osmosis treatment betterment? It's not like replacing an engine, the boat wasn't advertised with osmosis and the hull is defective which cost the purchaser hundreds to find out. Betterment is surely an entirely different scenario?

If its a 20 year old boat without Osmosis (but which may go on to develop Osmosis in the next few years) and you have a similar boat treated and therefore less likely to develop Osmosis over the next 10 to 15 years, then you can class that as betterment. In certain boats, certified and gauranteed Osmosis treatment would be seen as a definite selling point.

In this case the Op has already said....."that rest of boat is sound and comes at a very, very competitive price.
Even with paying for the treatment and an upgrade refit she's still good value if we had to sell."

So a bit of pragmatism wouldn't be a bad idea, especially if it is a sought after model.

 

[xyachtdave]

I good mate of mine bought a HR 352 with osmosis. Boat was from around 1979.

The surveyor whacked it with a hammer a few times and didn't seem overly bothered.

The boat went on to survive a December Biscay crossing (I chickened out of that part of the trip...!) and was sold a few years later without any trouble and without any repair work to the osmosis.

Personally I would be more interested in the rig and engine condition - both much more likely to cause actual trouble. Good luck with it whatever you decide to do.