Ever Wondered why Hydrovane have no imitators?

[silver-fox]

I have been looking at self steering systems and it struck me as strange that Hydrovane don't have any imitators. (The thought was provoked by the high price of what is a relatively simple bit of engineering and a desire to see a bit of competition bring the price down)

There is a wide variety of servo pendulum makes to choose from but, it seems, just one Hydrovane. It can't be a patent on the basic design because they have been making them for over 30 years.

 

[ironmaiden]

good question, I would like to have a go at fabricating one myself if I could get hold of one for a few days, or get hold of a set of drawings and photos.
regards rachel.

 

[macd]

I have been looking at self steering systems and it struck me as strange that Hydrovane don't have any imitators.
There is a wide variety of servo pendulum makes to choose from but, it seems, just one Hydrovane. It can't be a patent on the basic design because they have been making them for over 30 years.

It's not so strange. Hydrovane may not have imitators now, but that's not to say they didn't in the past. The concept on which they work is, as you suggest, antique, since pretty well everyone else has since settled on the horizontal-axis servo-pendulum concept. On the face of it the Hydrovane might be at a performance handicap, although I know several owners who swear by them.

For a history of self-steering systems, check out www.windpilot.com/en/Ra/raseren.html where Peter Forthmann's book 'Self-Steering Under Sail' can be downloaded free.

 

[KellysEye]

>It can't be a patent on the basic design

Not sure why you say that. My understanding is that it is patented.

On the price front, they may not be cheap but they are worth every penny. Try to go sailing on a boat that has one and you will see what I mean.

 

[masterofnone]

Hydrovane

Purchased 'freesprit' with one fitted, never used one before. sailed this year in 8-9 both into and following seas, set it up and was very impressed with it's capabilities. 2 problems, close quarter marina handling would be alot better if able to cant the rudder element out of the water, having to tack the hydrovane before tacking.

 

[Edwin]

>It can't be a patent on the basic design

Not sure why you say that. My understanding is that it is patented.

On the price front, they may not be cheap but they are worth every penny. Try to go sailing on a boat that has one and you will see what I mean.

I have owned a Windpilot, Aeries and a Hydrovane... The performance of the Hydrovane out classed the others. It is an expensive bit of kit but if you are truly long distance sailing then I am certain the extra cost of of a Hydrovane is worth while - think of the Arc boats that loose their rudders apart from its excellent steering capability!

I got a sailmaker to run up half a dozen covers spinnaker cloth covers for the wind vane for the retail cost of one from Hydrovane so perhaps it is over priced. It is on the other hand very rugged and will carry on working in awful conditions.

Once I got into local cruising mode I would take off the paddle and stow it on deck as parking problems with it in the water make it easier in those circumstances to use an electric autopilot... I think..

 

[silver-fox]

>It can't be a patent on the basic design

Not sure why you say that. My understanding is that it is patented.

On the price front, they may not be cheap but they are worth every penny. Try to go sailing on a boat that has one and you will see what I mean.

My understanding of patents is they last a fixed number of years, (somewhere in the region of 6-10 years I think) with the idea being it gives the inventor time to to profit from his invention but not in perpetuity to the dertiment of the consumer and technical progress.

The reason I say the "basic design" is because I know it has been on the market for 30 years and therefore, if there was a patent, it must have expired by now but there could be patents on the later refinements.

I don't doubt the quality of a Hydrovane, nor customers clear willingness to pay the price asked; but it would be nice to see if a little competition drove faster product development and prices down. (I don't see £1000+ for a simple "A-bracket" as value for money for example....I see it as a monopoly in action)

 

[KellysEye]

>30 years and therefore, if there was a patent, it must have expired by now but there could be patents on the later refinements.

Your latter point is correct. There have been considerable improvements over the years.

On the monoply front I think you are misinterpreting what a monoply is. There are many varieties of windvane you could choose, so Hydrovane doesn't have a monopoply. They own the design, they can legally do what they want with it and rightly so.

 

[silver-fox]

>

On the monoply front I think you are misinterpreting what a monoply is. There are many varieties of windvane you could choose, so Hydrovane doesn't have a monopoply. They own the design, they can legally do what they want with it and rightly so.

I have no complaint whatsoever about Hydrovane. They have a product that can command a premium in the market place - and good luck to them.

I do take your point about servo pendulum alternatives BUT when as I do,

-you have a centre cockpit with wheel steering and...
- You don't want extended lines to the wheel;
- You want to mount off centre to accommodate an existing boarding ladder - oh and you fancy the idea of an emergency rudder;

Trust me you end up with only one supplier...and that means for this small segment of the market....... they have a monopoly

Which brings me back to my opening question about there being no imitators. Maybe the market is simply too small, I notice in Hydrovane's advertising blurb that they make around 3 a week so its not high volume.

 

[KellysEye]

>they make around 3 a week so its not high volume

Yes I think that's why there isn't a direct competitor. I do wonder if the price is mainly because it's very high quality kit and IMO the most effective vane. Plus, as you said, it can act as an emergency rudder. It can also be driven by a fairly small autopilot, so quite versatile.

 

[jonic]

-you have a centre cockpit with wheel steering and...
- You don't want extended lines to the wheel;
- You want to mount off centre to accommodate an existing boarding ladder - oh and you fancy the idea of an emergency rudder;

That is my set up. I have a Hydrovane and absolutely swear by it.

Second to none customer service from the Curry family
Excellent build quality
Brilliant performance
Emergency rudder

It's at a premium because it is a premium product. There are other vanes to chose from so it's not a monopoly.

 

[macd]

I do take your point about servo pendulum alternatives BUT when as I do,

-you have a centre cockpit with wheel steering and...
- You don't want extended lines to the wheel;
- You want to mount off centre to accommodate an existing boarding ladder - oh and you fancy the idea of an emergency rudder;

Trust me you end up with only one supplier...and that means for this small segment of the market....... they have a monopoly.

Hydrovane is by no means the only supplier able to meet all three of your requirements. Cape Horn (with which I have no connection) certainly do. Several others meet the first two and the 'emergency rudder' part of the third (and which is more important, a boarding ladder or self-steering?) There is nothing intrinsic in a servo-pendulum system that precludes any of them.

As for the monopoly bit, pretty well all wind-vane steering suppliers are tiny businesses with little by way of economies of scale. Over the years plenty have gone broke, which suggests they're not exactly ripping us off.

From my own experience and speaking to many other owners, most wind-vane systems currently available do the job. Where they don't, it's often because sufficient care hasn't been taken in setting-up. It's a lucky boat on which they'll work at their best straight out of the box.

The point about rudder vulnerability is well made. In the last year I've helped two skippers straighten their Hydrovane rudder shafts after nudges against harbour walls. One was beyond straightening. If regularly berthing stern-to, it's a significant issue.

 

[Tradewinds]

The point about rudder vulnerability is well made. In the last year I've helped two skippers straighten their Hydrovane rudder shafts after nudges against harbour walls. One was beyond straightening. If regularly berthing stern-to, it's a significant issue.

Here's a post I made back in April showing a home-made adaption for a lift-up Hydrovane rudder.

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2093889#post2093889

Perhaps Hydrovane should investigate a lifting rudder - I'd be interested for one.

 

[Foxy]

We have an Aries (came with boat) and its great, but I've sailed and taught on four boats with Hydrovanes and found them the absolute Dogs B. Well made and excellent piece of kit. I would def buy one if needed in the future.

 

[highandry]

This is my second Hydrovane. Over nine years with the first one on my old boat, three years with this one on my new (1977 ) boat. I've never heard of any make of steering gear at all, that didn't do the job, but ate beans on toast for three months to afford this Hydrovane. I'm a fan..

 

[Blueboatman]

Re Paw paw, BINGO.
( please excuse the late night post post, insomnia rules with Horlicks...)

Hydrovane, imo, is simply the dogs danglies, but not cheap anymore.. If they would p/x my Monitor I would be delighted but strangely they appear uninterested... Crikey once you experience running downwind across ( YUP, Across) a lumpy sea,under Hydro without vangs or jibpoles, well, it is worth every penny( and I see that they use my previous testimony on their website).. It really is EXACTLY what you want offshore if you don't want to appear in Yachting World as yet another yacht abandoned because of rudder failure!