Even dafter than usual: an Osprey dinghy question

[Greenheart]

Here's the thing...there are always some Ospreys for sale at any time...some old but sound, some quite new, quite expensive...

...and some are very elderly, and cheap. Which I instinctively translate as indicating uncompetitive, fragile and troublesome...

...but one other thing strikes me. All the recent boats have no aft-deck - and their cockpits look vast, very wide and roomy...

...whereas, the old-timers, which I used to think were 'Mark 2s', all look substantially narrower, with limited cockpit space.

Technically all Ospreys have 5'9" beam.

I s'pose it's the broad side-decks on the first Osprey pictured below, which make it appear narrower than the second?

Any thoughts? Cheers in advance, Seajet.

Apologies if one or both of these pictures didn't open...and apologies for the second pic featuring no human element, by which to judge its proportions...

 

[Searush]

Old & cheap can just translate as not competitive. The racing nuts will pay a fortune for a "fast" boat. Also one that has ben in the bac of someone's garage for a while, the owner may just want to getthe space back & not really know its value. Tho there will also be plenty that are patched & rotten too.

 

[DanTribe]

Here's the thing...there are always some Ospreys for sale at any time...some old but sound, some quite new, quite expensive...

...and some are very elderly, and cheap. Which I instinctively translate as indicating uncompetitive, fragile and troublesome...

...but one other thing strikes me. All the recent boats have no aft-deck - and their cockpits look vast, very wide and roomy...

...whereas, the old-timers, which I used to think were 'Mark 2s', all look substantially narrower, with limited cockpit space.

Technically all Ospreys have 5'9" beam.

I s'pose it's the broad side-decks on the first Osprey pictured below, which make it appear narrower than the second?

Any thoughts? Cheers in advance, Seajet.

Apologies if one or both of these pictures didn't open...and apologies for the second pic featuring no human element, by which to judge its proportions...

Now that is SHINEY, lovely, I hope you're not going to risk spoiling it by putting it in water.

 

[AIDY]

used to race them years ago..... can't remeber now the difference but they changed the design of the later one's as they used to sink drastically at the bow when you rolled it. (too much buoyancy in the stern of the Mk 1's and 2's)

 

[Sailfree]

Hartley laminates now own the copyright and manufacture many Dinghies including the Osprey and the Wayfarer.

For the Hartley Wayfarer (Mk 4) there were some subtle changes to make the new Mk4 as fast as the fastest wooden boat in addition to complying with the latest EU regs. (eg for Wayfarer it is now rated for 6 x 70Kg persons has Hull buoyancy instead of buoyancy tanks and transom drain tubes). Previously many wooden Wayfarers had slight hull variations that gave some certain advantages in certain conditions. Having owned one of the last wooden boats for a number of years I was against the changes but they were passed and I now think their approval was the best thing for the class as it has made a completely level playing field. Some Wooden boats (with good helms) still feature in the top positions.

I think the same situation exists for Osprey class and I note that the 2011 Nationals the majority of the top 20 had sail numbers starting 13** which I am certain are all Hartley boats. The same for Wayfarers with sail numbers starting 106**.

I love the look of Wooden Dinghies but gave into the inevitable that if we wanted to be competitive Ihad to buy a Hartley GRP boat Mk4. Did this 2 yrs ago and not regretted it. We now have about 16 of the new Mk 4 Wayfarers at our club Parkstone YC and it has revitalised the class. I think Poole YC has a number of Ospreys.

If you want fun and a good dinghy buy an old one but you will always feel its the boat failing if you race and perform badly so you may end up the same as us and buying a new Hartley boat and with no excuse - still perform badly!!

 

[EuanMcKenzie]

I've had two uncompetitive Ospreys, one bought from someone at Ribble Cruising Club and the second from Sunderland YC both osprey clubs

my first was a mark 1 converted to a mark three by having the rear deck removed to give an open transom

The second had the slot in the aft deck. They are so the boat sinks when capsized and is less inclined to turtle.

I raced in a handicap feet and it was fun for that.

The latter made a nice cruising Dinghy as you can easily carry three

mark 2s also come as composites

Like most classes now you need to join the arms race to be at the front. A good woody like that below can still be near the front if sailed well.

Gave up my Phantom for the same reason - arms race boats

 

[Mwinda]

never raced one, but spent plenty of time cruising and swimming from two or three different ones in the late '80s
Lovely boats
My recollection of the Mk II/III was that they sank at the stern a fair bit after capsizing, but the water disappeared out of the back in about 3 seconds flat once you sheeted in with the transom flaps open.
Happy days

 

[Greenheart]

Hmm...thanks, gents. This talk of dubious buoyancy leads me to want one with the aft-deck chamber...and I reckon I'd fit airbags in every under-deck cavity.

Interesting that a fairly hefty design, which, for a while at least, could be raced with two OR three crew (ie upward of 200kg crew weight) wasn't supplied with enough flotation, by modern standards, or at any rate, unevenly distributed.

I've always imagined I'd equip the boat with a 5 litre air tank or bottle, on a burgee halyard, for rapid hoisting in sudden breezes, to prevent inversion in extremis.

I'm not bothered about racing, but I'm wary of acquiring an oldie with a slack rig that can't be flattened against a fresh breeze, or one that's lost all its original rigidity and flops off wave-tops like a dead dolphin.

Although, most likely any boat I find, can cope with more wind than I'll want to take her out in...

 

[Kelpie]

Hmm...thanks, gents. This talk of dubious buoyancy leads me to want one with the aft-deck chamber...and I reckon I'd fit airbags in every under-deck cavity.

Interesting that a fairly hefty design, which, for a while at least, could be raced with two OR three crew (ie upward of 200kg crew weight) wasn't supplied with enough flotation, by modern standards, or at any rate, unevenly distributed.

I've always imagined I'd equip the boat with a 5 litre air tank or bottle, on a burgee halyard, for rapid hoisting in sudden breezes, to prevent inversion in extremis.

I'm not bothered about racing, but I'm wary of acquiring an oldie with a slack rig that can't be flattened against a fresh breeze, or one that's lost all its original rigidity and flops off wave-tops like a dead dolphin.

Although, most likely any boat I find, can cope with more wind than I'll want to take her out in...

I'd be wary of adding extra buoyancy. By making the boat float higher, you may increase the tendency to invert, and/or make it much harder to climb onto the centreboard and right the boat.

 

[Seajet]

Dan,

mine was a wooden MkII, with the stern deck.

I always thought it had too much buoyancy; never had it sink or float low by either end, but could turn turtle if one wasn't quickly onto the centreboard.

I like fast sailing, but where I want to go, not around a course, so can't honestly say if she - no.902 - was competetive, I got the feeling she would be with new sails.

I was glad of the stern deck, the tank underneath was excellent for keeping flares & beer !

On one occasion I took her from Chichester to Cowes, putting our buoyancy aids over the side as fenders & staying at a friends' place; naturally the waves in mid Solent seemed a lot bigger than from a cruiser, at least the stern deck gave an illusion of keeping them at bay...

There will be news for you re. Ospreys sometime soon...

I'd not be too worried about fragility re Ospreys ! If I had the time & money I would love to have mine back, best dinghy I ever sailed let alone owned.

 

[EuanMcKenzie]

+1 seajet

stern tank gave it too much buoyancy so it was more likely to turtle as it floated too high when on its side.

slots in rear deck sank the stern enough to help stop that tendency

A composite mark 2/3 would make a great cruising dinghy if you can find one.

 

[Greenheart]

Dinghy spinnakers: 185sq' vs. 280sq' (all figures very approximate)

Many thanks for all replies.

Here's another question, without any reason except my unschooled curiosity:

Here are two pics (sorry about the first one's untameable size), of dinghies under spinnaker...505, and Osprey...

Is it me, or does the 505 seem to be flying a massive, manly spinnaker, while the Osprey carries a cutsie, kiddie-kite?

I read that the modern 505 spinnaker is much bigger than in the early days...isn't the Osprey likewise due for more area?

 

[Seajet]

Hi Dan;

for a start, I don't agree re. stern tank causing turtling; if one thinks about it, it has very little leverage and when capsized with the boat on her side it exerts no more leverage / buoyancy than a full length side tank...

I never found my Osprey up or down at either end when capsized either; I like the stern deck !

As for spinnakers, by a spooky coincidence I was helping 'Vern' of these forums fold his Osprey kite this afternoon; didn't seem small to me...

Difficult to compare without a 505 kite at the same time...

No way any normal Osprey is going to be 'fragile' BTW, at least not compared to other dinghies, Vern's is an old grp model and the sides of the tanks are a bit thin, but she's lasted since about 1965 and we have grand plans for her, more in due course

I've crewed a 505, I thought it OK but nothing special, and zero character.

We are still fettling Verns' boat, but I'm sure if you ask nicely he'll let you have a spin in a short while; as I say she's not a competetive racing example, but should give you an idea of why I rate the design as the best dinghy I've ever sailed, for any money.

 

[Seajet]

Dan,

just to add, the Osprey goes very well, and doesn't hang around with the kite up, believe me !

However, bunging on a bigger kite might lead to things like twin wires, and lead to an over-pressed dragster like the Int 14; that's not, in my opinion, what the Osprey is all about, she's fast, effortless, well mannered & graceful.

I was recounting to Vern this PM how I trailed my Osprey all the way to Falmouth with a platonic girlfriend ( had just split from proper girlfriend and wasn't going to lose the hol ! )but when we got there and rigged the boat - fantastic set-up at Grove dinghy park - my girlie " I love dinghy sailing " chum said " you mean I've got to sit on the side ? I'm not doing that ! "

So after a very frustrating week I virtually press ganged the fat young boy from the next tent, a Topper sailor who said he'd trapezed.

It was quite windy, and as we shot along parallel to the town we were hit by gusts between houses; then we heeled to windward and I was intrigued to see fat boy on wire swing out about 15' away, pulling the boat over as he dragged in the water, still at a good speed.

The idiot had unclipped the elastic from the trapeze and didn't have the jibsheet...

A lot of rudder kept her straight, but I couldn't bear away to bring him in; I had time to hold the tiller with my knee, coil up the mainsheet and throw it to him, pulling him in as we sped down the harbour at an unusual attitude; I'd have loved a photo - how many fast racing dinghies could you do that in ?!

Re. Osprey cockpits with sterndecks 'looking cramped', Dan you need to come along and see it !

 

[Greenheart]

Cheers Andy. Great story. I don't doubt photos or footage of that occasion, would cause plenty of humour hereabouts.

I wasn't disrespecting the Osprey's sailplan - I couldn't do that. I love the design's reputation for overall high performance that doesn't rely on screeching downwind legs, paid for with monstrous waywardness upwind. I reckon the Osprey's a perfect balance.

Looking at affordable oldies for sale, I'm reminded of the huge number of dinghies which don't have trailers. A few minutes looking at Apollo Duck, finds dozens. And it's not as if they were all easy car-toppers that can be shifted long distances without road wheels...

...I'm inclined to think I'd be smart to shop around for a serviceable old trailer (big enough to carry a 17'6" hull) before looking for a boat! Having the wheels would certainly free up various low-value un-wheeled boats for sale in far-flung locations.

Alas, it's academic for many reasons right now, not just cash - although not having a boat does make this lousy weather bearable...

Best of luck with Vern's boat, though - I'd love to see some photos here, if that's possible?

 

[Iain C]

Many thanks for all replies.

Here's another question, without any reason except my unschooled curiosity:

Here are two pics (sorry about the first one's untameable size), of dinghies under spinnaker...505, and Osprey...

Is it me, or does the 505 seem to be flying a massive, manly spinnaker, while the Osprey carries a cutsie, kiddie-kite?

I read that the modern 505 spinnaker is much bigger than in the early days...isn't the Osprey likewise due for more area?

The 505 changed to the "monster" kite in the early 2000s, I did a joint nationals with them at MBSC in my Fireball and they dwarfed our kites. However they now sail W/L courses rather than triangle sausage which has changed the character of the boat and the racing. It's good fun on a screaming broad reach with the big kite pulling, but that said a Fireball going ballistic on a very tight reach with the small kite is an awesome ride.

 

[Seajet]

Cheers Andy. Great story. I don't doubt photos or footage of that occasion, would cause plenty of humour hereabouts.

I wasn't disrespecting the Osprey's sailplan - I couldn't do that. I love the design's reputation for overall high performance that doesn't rely on screeching downwind legs, paid for with monstrous waywardness upwind. I reckon the Osprey's a perfect balance.

Looking at affordable oldies for sale, I'm reminded of the huge number of dinghies which don't have trailers. A few minutes looking at Apollo Duck, finds dozens. And it's not as if they were all easy car-toppers that can be shifted long distances without road wheels...

...I'm inclined to think I'd be smart to shop around for a serviceable old trailer (big enough to carry a 17'6" hull) before looking for a boat! Having the wheels would certainly free up various low-value un-wheeled boats for sale in far-flung locations.

Alas, it's academic for many reasons right now, not just cash - although not having a boat does make this lousy weather bearable...

Best of luck with Vern's boat, though - I'd love to see some photos here, if that's possible?

Dan,

re. trailers it's a tricky one; sure as eggs are eggs, if you buy and sort a trailer, the perfect boat will turn up with a trailer thrown in !

I know Hayling Trailers used to hire out large yacht trailers, but stopped doing so years ago because the things were abused so much; an extreme, salt water exampe of the way people treat hire cars...

I think I'd wait to find the right boat, then sort it all out; all the owner / vendors I've ever met seemed quite Ok with details, as I came across as serious about buying the boat.

If you don't get an Osprey after all this, I'll top myself just so I can come along and haunt you...

 

[EuanMcKenzie]

slots in the rear deck are specifically mentioned in the class rules but to be honest i couldn't see much difference having had both.

Would fill them back in for cruising anyway

Miss my old boat...

Have fun

 

[FistralG]

Now that is SHINEY, lovely, I hope you're not going to risk spoiling it by putting it in water.

That is shiney but (and apologies for going slightly OT) there aren't many that can top a well turned out Albacore IMHO