EU takes action against Malta, Greece and Cyprus on VAT

[Portofino]

Italy has last year ? , announced a flat rate of €100,000 per annum tax for High Net Worth individuals for irrc 17 years - if they relocate to Italy .
As infered ^^^ it’s better they come to IT , spend €€€ on a suitable properties , spend more €€€ re configuring them , spend €€ @ in how ever many car dealerships , staff , gardeners etc —- schools , planes n trains ,— oh nearly forgot - berth there Yacht .
Feel able to up size the yacht ( now massive saving in world wide tax ) .
The IT “ ruling body “ has clarified the VAT status for these none IT HNW of there hopefully new IT built yacht , by allowing an AIS or other electronic trace of 15 ( or what ever miles ? ) as evidence from the IT shipyard that the vessels sale was outside IT waters for the purposes of VAT mitigation.
Previous to this most port authority s did not allow this and built barriers ,made it awkward.

Two things
1 - trickle down wealth of HNW
2 - boost the boat SY industry in Italy

So you are better off with them the HNW ,s as opposed to against them tax wise .

So the Italians have in a Del Boy kinda way undercut everybody else in the EU with an attractive package for HNW,s and boosted it’s SY industry.

Hope MapishM is not too sick reading this

 

[jfm]

So the Italians have in a Del Boy kinda way undercut everybody else in the EU with an attractive package for HNW,s and boosted it’s SY industry.

Yup. Ref the bit quoted above, IT is merely keeping up. As a HNW you can get a similar personal tax outcome (broadly, €/£100k pa, in UK, Ireland, Jersey, France, Australia, NZ, Hong Kong, CH, Monaco and a stack of others I struggle to remember.

 

[MapisM]

Before you criticise anyone for avoiding VAT on a boat purchase

Actually I'm not, if you re-read my previous post. It's rather the fact that this can happen, that I'm criticizing.
If anything, I might agree with Pan when he says that it's not the world in general which is sick, but rather the morons in charge.
But the final result is that what we are debating has always happened, and I it's unlikely that will ever change.
So, I believe it's easy to see what I mean when I summarize/simplify the situation by saying that we live in a sick world.
Not that there's any need to look at pleasure boats to establish that: the global financial meltdown and its outcome already proved that beyond any reasonable doubt - and also other general events before and after that. I'd rather not write a summary of economic history, though...

But in reply to jfm question about whether it's the absolute value or the percentage, it's neither.
What is sick is the total lack of fairness, which puts those who can only afford a small rib in the condition to pay VAT just because a tax avoidance consultant would cost way more than their whole boat, while for FB and the likes it makes a lot of economic sense, because there's much more at stake.
In other words, we have some general principles on one hand - like the existence of a consumption tax (and I'm using this generic term purposely, because in this context the many differences between say the EU VAT and the US sales tax are irrelevant) to be paid by anyone on anything "consumed". We can all agree that this is reasonably fair, I hope.
Otoh, we have the real world rules governing these principles, with all their complications, loopholes, differences between Countries, etc.
The final result being that there are almost always ways for FB and the likes (I mean, legal-ish ways, not the straight evasion of old) to avoid paying the boat VAT, or just about any other tax.
It's just a matter of cost comparison between the tax potentially avoided and the cost of putting in place whatever it takes to do it legally enough.
Now, if this doesn't qualify as a sick distortion, I don't know what else does.

And I completely disagree with BruceK when he says that these views depend on political ideas.
It's all too common these days to dismiss (or support) some concepts based on the supposed political position of whoever express them.
I'm all for capitalism, and I'm happy to have lived in a system which allowed me to earn as a CEO more than about two hundreds of other folks in the same company - though I suspect that I worked my bollox off more to run a business which wasn't my own, compared to how much FB did to run his rather peculiar business (the true one, I mean), but let's not go into that.
What I'm trying to say is that I'm a supporter of the system we live in, and I wish to see its distortion amended precisely for that reason - i.e. quite the opposite of those who wish to destroy it.
Not that I'm holding my breath though, because I'm not planning to live for another 50 or 60 years - and I'm not even sure that would be enough...

 

[MapisM]

Hope MapishM is not too sick reading this

No worries L, as long as you don't throw EGT and deadrise in the debate, I can stand it!

 

[sorabain]

Yup. Ref the bit quoted above, IT is merely keeping up. As a HNW you can get a similar personal tax outcome (broadly, €/£100k pa, in UK, Ireland, Jersey, France, Australia, NZ, Hong Kong, CH, Monaco and a stack of others I struggle to remember.

I wasn't aware of it happening in the UK. Is this for a fixed term for HNW applying for residence here? Some kind of relatively short time limit on it? Given the current left wing renaissance in the UK i'm surprised it's not been "outed" in the media (traditional or social) "billionaire pays 5% tax when nurse pays 30%" or something.

 

[MapisM]

As a matter of intrinsic fairness to promote efficiency in governments, you can argue that counties should be allowed to compete with each other by lowering taxes to attract activity. If not, you have a cartel don't you?

Sure, but cartels aren't bad per se, it's their "private" use which creates distortions.
There's nothing wrong with them when established by governing bodies, in order to create a fair playground.
EU harmonization is all well and good in principle. It's the fact that they can't put it in practice that makes it a joke.

 

[sorabain]

I wasn't aware of it happening in the UK. Is this for a fixed term for HNW applying for residence here? Some kind of relatively short time limit on it? Given the current left wing renaissance in the UK i'm surprised it's not been "outed" in the media (traditional or social) "billionaire pays 5% tax when nurse pays 30%" or something.

(I'm assuming you mean mainland UK and not just certain small crown dependencies where I can imagine deals can be made)

 

[BruceK]

And I completely disagree with BruceK when he says that these views depend on political ideas.
...

I dont see how you can divorce the morality or fairness of your argument from a socio-political stance. As fairness and morality are concepts that need a yardstick by which to measure them. Political stance will alter the yardstick.

As for your sentiments I whole heartedly agree with you, from both ends of the spectrum I may add. I see many examples of really hard working low income people doing miserable jobs for no dollar while others live the life of Riley abusing the social benefits system. That's not fair either. There was a time when as a young salaried worker earning well that I could not afford to send my kids to afterschool daycare and all the school trips etc etc while kids who's parents were life long benefit cheats had the lot. To overcome this my wife had to give up her career for 8 years.So what's fair is always relative and always skewed to the eye of the individual that makes that call.

 

[Zing]

I wasn't aware of it happening in the UK. Is this for a fixed term for HNW applying for residence here? Some kind of relatively short time limit on it? Given the current left wing renaissance in the UK i'm surprised it's not been "outed" in the media (traditional or social) "billionaire pays 5% tax when nurse pays 30%" or something.

Have you never wondered why the Russian Oligarchs are here? It is not just that Russia is a corrupt cesspit. Or why London is stuffed to the gills with HNW individuals from elsewhere around the globe, why it is France's 6th largest city since they introduced their ISF (v. nasty wealth tax). And why the high end property in London has gone bonkers? It's not a mystery and it is not secret, it's also a quagmire of complexity. Start here for an intro:
https://www.gov.uk/tax-foreign-income/non-domiciled-residents

Now talking about fairness - why can I not get the benefit of all this, but the foreigners can? That's not fair.

 

[BruceK]

Another look at your fairness ideal would be .... why should a person who has contributed to the wealth and living of so many other people be so heavily punished with a taxation that is not in keeping with the rest of the population? Should he really pay more because he worked so much harder and smarter? Take the British NI for example. Salary based. My heart op did cost any more than his heart op, nor did I receive any preferential treatment to "him" despite the fact that in terms of money invested into the system I trumped him several fold. Same goes for my garbage collection, municipal services, roads, infrastructure. Why should any man who enjoys the same infrastucture pay any more or less than another. Next will come the argument to have means tested TV licences and vehicle excise duty etc.

 

[sorabain]

Have you never wondered why the Russian Oligarchs are here? It is not just that Russia is a corrupt cesspit. Or why London is stuffed to the gills with HNW individuals from elsewhere around the globe, why it is France's 6th largest city since they introduced their ISF (v. nasty wealth tax). And why the high end property in London has gone bonkers? It's not a mystery and it is not secret, it's also a quagmire of complexity. Start here for an intro:
https://www.gov.uk/tax-foreign-income/non-domiciled-residents

Now talking about fairness - why can I not get the benefit of all this, but the foreigners can? That's not fair.

That seems to be for non-doms. Fair enough not having to pay UK tax on income earned outside of the UK if your domicile is also outside of the UK. I've only skimmed posts, but the "italian deal" seemed like it was meant to bring people to live there (domicile) and only pay a fixed tax. I'm more amenable if this is also just for tax on income earned outside of Italy.

Regarding Russians in London. I've heard it said that there are two tax rates in Russia: 100% or 0% depending on how well you get on with a certain person. There are many reasons why they may live here without needing to be a special deal for 100k fixed tax per year. We do have many home-grown HNW individuals who also stay in London and pay much more than that in tax so it must have something going for it.

 

[jfm]

I wasn't aware of it happening in the UK. Is this for a fixed term for HNW applying for residence here? Some kind of relatively short time limit on it? Given the current left wing renaissance in the UK i'm surprised it's not been "outed" in the media (traditional or social) "billionaire pays 5% tax when nurse pays 30%" or something.

I was deliberately avoiding the details on how these "£100k pa" tax systems work because the details are all different. I was just describing the economics.

FWIW the Uk has a non dom system which after some years requires payment of a £90k pa fixed tax. But as I say the detailed mechanics are not the point I was making.

 

[sorabain]

Another look at your fairness ideal would be .... why should a person who has contributed to the wealth and living of so many other people be so heavily punished with a taxation that is not in keeping with the rest of the population? Should he really pay more because he worked so much harder and smarter? Take the British NI for example. Salary based. My heart op did cost any more than his heart op, nor did I receive any preferential treatment to "him" despite the fact that in terms of money invested into the system I trumped him several fold. Same goes for my garbage collection, municipal services, roads, infrastructure. Why should any man who enjoys the same infrastucture pay any more or less than another. Next will come the argument to have means tested TV licences and vehicle excise duty etc.

If everyone paid the same rate you'd have to come to terms with the fact that it will have to be a lowest common denominator, so the overall takings will be smaller and the quality of service/infrastructure that much poorer.

I started off winning a genetic lottery, then survived many random dice rolls and came out pretty well, so don't mind paying a bit more to raise living standards for those not so fortunate. It irks me when some more fortunate than I are able to pay less. That's regressive.

 

[BruceK]

If everyone paid the same rate you'd have to come to terms with the fact that it will have to be a lowest common denominator, so the overall takings will be smaller and the quality of service/infrastructure that much poorer.

I started off winning a genetic lottery, then survived many random dice rolls and came out pretty well, so don't mind paying a bit more to raise living standards for those not so fortunate. It irks me when some more fortunate than I are able to pay less. That's regressive.

Ah but that is idealistic not fairness. And my argument then holds true.

 

[MapisM]

Ah but that is idealistic not fairness. And my argument then holds true.

Call it also idealistic if you wish, but if you think that what sorabain said doesn't belong to fairness first and foremost, your view is as regressive as what he's complaining about, imho.

 

[BruceK]

You are putting words into my mouth. I simply said originally that debating a political construct will not provide a winner as different people will have different views on what is propper and fair. I think I am balanced and fair, you think I am regressive. Case in point. What is amusing is I already said I agree with you, but to bemoan it is fruitless, for thst youd make me your whipping boy?

 

[BruceK]

Let's deconstruct this from a progressive angle then. Your beef that it is a sick world comes from a selfish stance of I paid my dues, FB didn't. Now we know that you are not in the top one percentile of the world in terms of income. You are a fraction of that. While the vast majority struggle to get the bare necessities like clean water, hygiene, medical etc. Over 50% of the world population. Is it fair and morally just that you have so much? That the world is sick because of a petty injustice? Have you no shame?

It's all in the yardstick by which you measure it. I'd say your world is just peachy and heaven to more than 5 billion people.

 

[Portofino]

Interesting to see post brexit inc after any transition period ,ie when we have a presume full fat none EU status if any of the Med boys ( or any others for that matter-? ) seek / take any advantage of temporary importation rule ( TI) if they change boats .?
Either try not to pay “Tax”; on a newie or seek a “none tax paid “on a used boat ?

Or turned around- what doors does none EU open —- more easily than before? - tip the table towards ?

 

[Bigplumbs]

I wish people would stop wriggling out of paying their tax what ever form it takes. This just increases the Burden on others. It is usually the rich that try not to pay and the poor that pick up the bill. People need a better moral compass in my view

 

[MapisM]

for thst youd make me your whipping boy?

LOL, whipping boy, I had to look for that in an online dictionary.
But I am at a loss in understanding why exactly you think that I am treating you as "a person who is blamed or punished for the faults or incompetence of others". And whose faults/incompetence, btw?
Anyway, no worries. Rest assured that I'm not interested to whip anyone, if a more literal reading makes any sense...

In fact, I appreciate that you agreed with my views in your post #28.
But now it's your point about fairness being a totally relative concept, whose measuring yardstick can legitimately be altered by political stance, that I'm disagreeing with.
I mean, Hitler was convinced that the holocaust was fair and just... Which in a sense proves your point, I guess.
But to my simple mind, the fact that "kids who's parents were life long benefit cheats had the lot" (while yours didn't) remains unfair no matter what, period.
Call me naive if you wish, but I believe that anyone with a pinch of common sense and integrity must agree with that regardless of any political stance and yardsticks.

Oh, and ref your last point about the fact that my "sick world" example was based on a petty injustice, well, guilty as charged, your Honor.
I'm well aware to be, relatively speaking, a spoiled brat. But being aware of that is better than nothing.
I came across FB-like folks in my life who were genuinely convinced to have deserved the fortunes that they cumulated just because they were smart and worked hard, as if they never cheated along the road, or as if their achievements weren't allowed to a large extent by the social system they lived in.

Anyhow, if what you are saying is that there are much better reasons to call our world sick, compared to the one I used in my previous "theorem" (which was obviously half meant as a sort of ironic joke), of course I couldn't agree more.
Otoh, if your point is that to be 100% consistent with what I'm saying I should sell my boat, my holiday home and all other unnecessary stuff I'm surrounded of, giving everything to some humanitarian NGO, well, I never pretended to be a saint.
Someone said that a clear conscience is the sign of a bad memory, but after all why should I be blamed if my memory ain't so good...?