EU Complaint update - Success!

[Chris_Robb]

Finally we have had success in our complaint against the AADE

In Brief the rules are:

• That all UK yachts in Greece or the EU 27 will be treated as full Union Goods status and will therefore not require a Transit Log to be issued of any sort whilst they remain in Greek Waters, the yachts being “in Free Circulation”
• 
  
• b) On return to Greek Waters inside 3 years, they will need to apply for “Customs Procedures” (Returned Goods Relief) and provide proof of Vat Payment either in the EU 27 or, if UK VAT Paid provide proof of VAT Paid and proof of their “Presences in EU Waters on 31st Dec 2021”. Note: This needs to be formally agreed to “any 3rd country boat rather than only for UK flagged boats”.

Obligations under the Transit Log:

All yachts are required, on entering a Greek Port, to report to Port Police and again before exit. This is operated erratically in every part of Greece, with the Ionian being the most lax.

To clarify these rules we are approaching the Minister of Shipping for guidance, especially as this could greatly increase the burden on the Hellenic Coast Guard (Port Police) on an already busy system.

Anchoring Out: It is only when you enter Port and tie up alongside that triggers the need to report. Again this area is sometimes “over interpreted” by some overzealous Customs officers. We are seeking clarity of operations.

Updates of all issues for yachts in Greece are constantly updated on the CA website for members.

Translation courtesy of Michalis Roditis - Customs Agent in Rhodes and Simi - he might be useful to early returnees from Turkey.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Excellent news.
Thanks for your hard work.

 

[grumpygit]

Excellent news.
Thanks for your hard work.

I second that, thanks Chris

 

[BurnitBlue]

Excellent news.
Thanks for your hard work.

Pity it was wasted. I am really sorry to be a miserable git. The phrase by Virgil "Timeo danaos et dona ferentes" "Beware a greek bearing gifts" This gift is applicable only if a yacht remains in Greek waters and never, even for half an hour, dare to spend the tourist money rightfull claimed by Greece in any other country, even those in Schengen. This has a chance of working in the previous time scale but today when a Skipper is only allowed 90/180 it is impossible and impractical. It will be a three year cycle of stupidity. Write out the 90/180 allocation.
First year, jan/feb/mar. = green. April/may/june/july/aug/sep. = red. Oct/nov/dec = green.
Second year. Jan/feb/mar/apr/may/june = red. July/aug/sep = green. Oct/nov/dec. = red.
Third year. Jan/feb/mar = red. Apr/may/june = green. July/aug/sept/oct/nov/dec = red.
Fourth year = back to first year repeating.

I will give it two month first year then back to travel log. Unless I have got the sequence wrong. Possible, I am not often wrong but I think I am right this time.

Edit. Just been in the sunshine with my new Kindle paperwhite. The first sentence I read was from Lin and Larry Pardy about yacht cruising " beware of silken threads that can lead to entrapment". WoW. Talk about the "obliging universe" theory. How apt is that?

 

[Shaddickp]

Burnit, I dont follow your logic in putting six months between each 3 month visit. You only need to leave it 3 months then you can go back for a further 3 months.
Reason being is that after 3 months the days at the start of your previous 3 month stay in Greece start to fall out of the reckoning. There are a number of online calculators that can be used to check your days 'used up'.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Pity it was wasted. I am really sorry to be a miserable git. The phrase by Virgil "Timeo danaos et dona ferentes" "Beware a greek bearing gifts" This gift is applicable only if a yacht remains in Greek waters and never, even for half an hour, dare to spend the tourist money rightfull claimed by Greece in any other country, even those in Schengen. This has a chance of working in the previous time scale but today when a Skipper is only allowed 90/180 it is impossible and impractical. It will be a three year cycle of stupidity. Write out the 90/180 allocation.
First year, jan/feb/mar. = green. April/may/june/july/aug/sep. = red. Oct/nov/dec = green.
Second year. Jan/feb/mar/apr/may/june = red. July/aug/sep = green. Oct/nov/dec. = red.
Third year. Jan/feb/mar = red. Apr/may/june = green. July/aug/sept/oct/nov/dec = red.
Fourth year = back to first year repeating.

I will give it two month first year then back to travel log. Unless I have got the sequence wrong. Possible, I am not often wrong but I think I am right this time.

Edit. Just been in the sunshine with my new Kindle paperwhite. The first sentence I read was from Lin and Larry Pardy about yacht cruising " beware of silken threads that can lead to entrapment". WoW. Talk about the "obliging universe" theory. How apt is that?

Hi, obviously you are disalusioned with Greece as am I and Vic, that said since crossing swords with the Portuguese group he has gone missing for a month.I should have taken his advice and gone to Sicily last winter.
To late now as I am getting residency end of June that should help as soon as I have the papers I am off ,as you say it's a money making racket with all this buerocratic paperwork nonsense.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Burnit, I dont follow your logic in putting six months between each 3 month visit. You only need to leave it 3 months then you can go back for a further 3 months.
Reason being is that after 3 months the days at the start of your previous 3 month stay in Greece start to fall out of the reckoning. There are a number of online calculators that can be used to check your days 'used up'.

You are correct. I have always looked at the schedule as 90 days in then 180 days out. However, it has been said that it is not tied to an annual thing. But a backlooking calculation.. starting in 2021 jan/feb/mar. The skipper has used up his 90 days and must go home. You say if he stays home for 90 days until july and then counts back 180 days he will still see 90 days used up. The next day, however, he will see 89 days so he can go back to Schengen for one day ... and so on the next day and the next.until another 90 days catches up with him. That makes the schedule three month in followed by three month out. It still messes up the sailing season but I agree it seems a improvement on three month in and six month out then three month back in to complete the year. Both systems work and are legal.

I was basing my opinion on the fact that a third country must have at least three month on the passport to be allowed in. A different thing but I had the idea that they must line up with a clear three month. Apparantly not so, my mistake.

I wonder what other schedules skippers think would be to their advantage. For instance one month in one month out and so on.

Thanks for the heads up.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Hi, obviously you are disalusioned with Greece as am I and Vic, that said since crossing swords with the Portuguese group he has gone missing for a month.I should have taken his advice and gone to Sicily last winter.
To late now as I am getting residency end of June that should help as soon as I have the papers I am off ,as you say it's a money making racket with all this buerocratic paperwork nonsense.

I wondered where vic was. I am not disalusioned with Greece, the country. As a friend of mine often says, Greece is a wonderfull country but it is full of Greeks. I agree, the country is absolutely gorgeous. I sometines take a random ktel buss inland and the scenary is stunning. I reckon Greece would be fantastic driving around in a motor home. On boat, however the weather is quite crap and hot. Add the bureaucracy and a form of disalusion does sets in.

 

[grumpygit]

Hi, obviously you are disalusioned with Greece as am I and Vic, that said since crossing swords with the Portuguese group he has gone missing for a month.I should have taken his advice and gone to Sicily last winter.
To late now as I am getting residency end of June that should help as soon as I have the papers I am off ,as you say it's a money making racket with all this buerocratic paperwork nonsense.

I feel sure that most of the EU states will not be any better, probably with the reported exception of Portugal by the "group"
Imo, I think we should give things time to settle and hopefully with more adjustments.
Bravo with getting your residency, do you know if it's a five or a ten year because this will make a big difference to you but unfortunately not your boat.

 

[BurnitBlue]

@Shaddickp, I have just been back sitting in my garden and I really appreciate your take on the 90/180 rule. I realised that it is a totally different ball game. And a tremendous improvement on my take of 6 month absence based on a wrong idea. Mucho thanks.

 

[Resolution]

Pity it was wasted. I am really sorry to be a miserable git. The phrase by Virgil "Timeo danaos et dona ferentes" "Beware a greek bearing gifts" This gift is applicable only if a yacht remains in Greek waters and never, even for half an hour, dare to spend the tourist money rightfull claimed by Greece in any other country, even those in Schengen.

BurnitBlue
I think you are mixing things up. There are two separate concerns for us:
1.Rules relating to the boat; and
2. Rules relating to us persons.
This letter that Chris has procured relates to the boats, and is at last an acknowledgement of what we understood the ECC rules to be, and a contradiction of what local customs officers seem to have been claiming. It is excellent news.
Your comments about Schengen time limits relate only to people, have nothing to do with boats, and anyway have been in practice for many years. The only change is that, post Brexit, UK citizens are treated as non-EU foreigners. Which is apparently what the British people wanted.....

 

[BurnitBlue]

BurnitBlue
I think you are mixing things up. There are two separate concerns for us:
1.Rules relating to the boat; and
2. Rules relating to us persons.
This letter that Chris has procured relates to the boats, and is at last an acknowledgement of what we understood the ECC rules to be, and a contradiction of what local customs officers seem to have been claiming. It is excellent news.
Your comments about Schengen time limits relate only to people, have nothing to do with boats, and anyway have been in practice for many years. The only change is that, post Brexit, UK citizens are treated as non-EU foreigners. Which is apparently what the British people wanted.....

Yes, but to me the two things are related. An agreement to allow my boat to remain in Greek waters Travel log free, as long as it stays in Greek waters yet at the same time limiting me to 90/180 in those same Greek waters is a bit pointless. I could sail my boat out of Greece and the EU to (say) Turkey and instead buy a Travel log.
But, in the words of the Pardeys, Greece hopes to entrap my boat in Greece with silken threads. I find it difficult to explain myself these days so you may not understand why I prefer to extend my cruising season outside EU rather than limit my time on my boat to 90 continuous days inside Greece and EU just so that I don't have to buy a Travel log. 90 days sailing my boat in the EU plus another 90 Days in Turkey, or elsewhere is better for me.

You cannot resist the dig at what you percieve as what the British people wanted. They wanted freedom from the EU and they got it. Limiting rich tourists to 90 days is a loss for the EU. I am British and I can sail my boat anywhere I like in the free world. The EU needs my money more than I need the EU to spend it.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Hi, obviously you are disalusioned with Greece as am I and Vic, that said since crossing swords with the Portuguese group he has gone missing for a month.I should have taken his advice and gone to Sicily last winter.
To late now as I am getting residency end of June that should help as soon as I have the papers I am off ,as you say it's a money making racket with all this buerocratic paperwork nonsense.

I missed that bit where you implied you will need residence to escape Greek bureaucracy. You must really be entangled in a paperwork nightmare. I hope everything goes well for you. Vic once mentioned he got more information from a facebook group than from ybw. I have looked for this group but failed to find it. Unfortunitely YBW forums are now infested with "hate Britain" remainers and it taints every post they make. The moderators have closed the current affairs forum and are trying to limit the Covid forum to boat related posts. They are doing their best but the howls of protest are really quite funny if it wasn't so sad.. Just look at my last post above where I had to defend it against @Resolution for the typical jab at brexit. It taints every post and I am fed up with it.

Sorry, where are you and vic headed to. Turkey seems out because of the "sea snot" I have declared in another post that my future lies in the Caribbean. Covid permitting of course.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Pity it was wasted. I am really sorry to be a miserable git. The phrase by Virgil "Timeo danaos et dona ferentes" "Beware a greek bearing gifts" This gift is applicable only if a yacht remains in Greek waters and never, even for half an hour, dare to spend the tourist money rightfull claimed by Greece in any other country, even those in Schengen. This has a chance of working in the previous time scale but today when a Skipper is only allowed 90/180 it is impossible and impractical. It will be a three year cycle of stupidity. Write out the 90/180 allocation.
First year, jan/feb/mar. = green. April/may/june/july/aug/sep. = red. Oct/nov/dec = green.
Second year. Jan/feb/mar/apr/may/june = red. July/aug/sep = green. Oct/nov/dec. = red.
Third year. Jan/feb/mar = red. Apr/may/june = green. July/aug/sept/oct/nov/dec = red.
Fourth year = back to first year repeating.

I will give it two month first year then back to travel log. Unless I have got the sequence wrong. Possible, I am not often wrong but I think I am right this time.

Edit. Just been in the sunshine with my new Kindle paperwhite. The first sentence I read was from Lin and Larry Pardy about yacht cruising " beware of silken threads that can lead to entrapment". WoW. Talk about the "obliging universe" theory. How apt is that?

Burnot - you are a miserable Git!
The whole point of this is that Greece now accepts Article 203 (UCC) for returned Goods releif. This is now the accepted Law in Greek. FULL STOP.

Next year - I would like to bet that the Transit Log goes the way of the DEKPA - wana place a bet mate?
Time not wasted at all.
And until you leave and come back under RGR and get a UTL, you remain just like any EU Flagged vessels.
and by the time you do this the TL may not exist!!!

And why did those misguided Brits change to Polish flag - and possibly screw up their Insurance???

 

[Chris_Robb]

I wondered where vic was. I am not disalusioned with Greece, the country. As a friend of mine often says, Greece is a wonderfull country but it is full of Greeks. I agree, the country is absolutely gorgeous. I sometines take a random ktel buss inland and the scenary is stunning. I reckon Greece would be fantastic driving around in a motor home. On boat, however the weather is quite crap and hot. Add the bureaucracy and a form of disalusion does sets in.

If you look what the CA has done over since 2014:
1. Removed daily reporting requirements for all yachts in Greece (except 3rd Countries) (2014)
2. Stopped TA being limited to 6 months - EU Complaint (2016)
3. Scrapping of the DEKPA (2020)
4. E-TEPAI - we managed to get proper instructions and publicity from the Greeks so it at least was not a night mare. (2019)
5. Sorted Vat and Bureaucracy on Transit Log (2021)
6 Next year - Scrap TL..... watch this space. The last bit of intrusive Bureaucracy.

I suspect other countries are now worse.

 

[Chris_Robb]

I missed that bit where you implied you will need residence to escape Greek bureaucracy. You must really be entangled in a paperwork nightmare. I hope everything goes well for you. Vic once mentioned he got more information from a facebook group than from ybw. I have looked for this group but failed to find it. Unfortunitely YBW forums are now infested with "hate Britain" remainers and it taints every post they make. The moderators have closed the current affairs forum and are trying to limit the Covid forum to boat related posts. They are doing their best but the howls of protest are really quite funny if it wasn't so sad.. Just look at my last post above where I had to defend it against @Resolution for the typical jab at brexit. It taints every post and I am fed up with it.

Sorry, where are you and vic headed to. Turkey seems out because of the "sea snot" I have declared in another post that my future lies in the Caribbean. Covid permitting of course.

Your are right - YBW is now a side show, but at the same time the Face books things are a pile of disjointed stuff. I am probably not going to do either of them in future as the tiny handful here is getting slammer all the time.

I get far more long term help from the CA - which is really good value for money, unless you are real cheapskates

 

[BurnitBlue]

Burnot - you are a miserable Git!
The whole point of this is that Greece now accepts Article 203 (UCC) for returned Goods releif. This is now the accepted Law in Greek. FULL STOP.

Next year - I would like to bet that the Transit Log goes the way of the DEKPA - wana place a bet mate?
Time not wasted at all.
And until you leave and come back under RGR and get a UTL, you remain just like any EU Flagged vessels.
and by the time you do this the TL may not exist!!!

And why did those misguided Brits change to Polish flag - and possibly screw up their Insurance???

Yes, i am a miserable git and at last someone agrees with me. However, my point about it being a waste of your time is that you were putting an obvious flaw in their proposal by doing their due diligence for them. It should never have been necessary. You have an uphill battle and a continual battle of wits ahead of you. I recall a mantra used in my military service. It is immoral in a battle of wits to fight an unarmed man. Leave the poor Greeks alone.

As for the bet, i raise you 26 countries. The EU WILL lose one more donor country in the comming years. That will be the end of the EU and a return of 90 days auto visa for 26 seperate countries.

BTW I hope you were not upset about my comment. I just thought it strange that you claimed success for getting the Greeks to obey their own set of rules they agreed to when they joined the EU.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Your are right - YBW is now a side show, but at the same time the Face books things are a pile of disjointed stuff. I am probably not going to do either of them in future as the tiny handful here is getting slammer all the time.

I get far more long term help from the CA - which is really good value for money, unless you are real cheapskates

Send me a pm ...no? send me details of joining .
Bob

 

[Chris_Robb]

Send me a pm ...no? send me details of joining .
Bob

its www.theCA.org and the discount code is DAFAS for the first year....

 

[Chris_Robb]

Yes, i am a miserable git and at last someone agrees with me. However, my point about it being a waste of your time is that you were putting an obvious flaw in their proposal by doing their due diligence for them. It should never have been necessary. You have an uphill battle and a continual battle of wits ahead of you. I recall a mantra used in my military service. It is immoral in a battle of wits to fight an unarmed man. Leave the poor Greeks alone.

As for the bet, i raise you 26 countries. The EU WILL lose one more donor country in the comming years. That will be the end of the EU and a return of 90 days auto visa for 26 seperate countries.

BTW I hope you were not upset about my comment. I just thought it strange that you claimed success for getting the Greeks to obey their own set of rules they agreed to when they joined the EU.

They signed something called the Copenhagen protocol - which says that all laws must be fair, well publicised, etc - which is something the Greeks don't do. Their Customs especially pounce on someone and waste huge amounts of state time finding out why someone was at anchor and not reporting in, Three hours grilling for not reporting in . I have no love for these petty Fiefdoms.