Etap 23

Seajet said:
If the side steadies are then raised - a lot of trailer's steadies are on ' acro ' type heavy duty buttress style threads - the boat can be raised and the keel lowered to the ground, or a block allowing access around the ballast bulb too.
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Sounds like a recipe for another one of your frequent accidents, although this one could be terminal if you were crawling around underneath.

Seajet said:
A friend of mine, a seriously good engineer, did this with his trailer for his Anderson 22 lift keeler; he found the boat may not be all that steady when raised like this...
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So a seriously poor engineer then, with no regard for safety. Why would anyone crawl around under a couple of tons of boat knowing it's precariously propped? You really should stop believing everything your friends say, because some of them seem to be daft and misinformed.
 
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Angus,

I know it's been a grot Christmas for you, according to Greg Lake's ' I believe in Father Christmas ', ' The Christmas We Get We Deserve ', hence you being alone; but do try to grow a brain in that malevolent misguided space between your ears.

For a start a lot less than a couple of tons, the bare boat is supposedly 2,500lbs so minus the 950lb keel resting on the ground that's 1,550lbs.

More to the point, who said he was underneath the boat ? You made it up, I didn't say or imply it.

Raising a boat which is widest near the middle and goes in at stern & bow, the steadies are at the corner edges, so my chum was winding the acro style supports from the outside, well away from the boat; which BTW could not fall, the worst you could wish for is the thread somehow running away and winding down, which if you tried you'd find very near impossible.

My chum is indeed a very good engineer, he has worked on vehicles like racing cars all his adult life so about 37 years, and boats for the last 20.

He's sadly deficient in one aspect though, he can't read the minds and observe the actions in retrospect of people he's never met, at the other end of the UK.
 
Seajet said:
For a start a lot less than a couple of tons, the bare boat is supposedly 2,500lbs so minus the 950lb keel resting on the ground that's 1,550lbs.

More to the point, who said he was underneath the boat ? You made it up, I didn't say or imply it.
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Whether anyone is splatted by 2500lbs or 1550lbs is irrelevant, even you can understand that. The result is the same - death.

Why would you prop up a boat if not to get to its undersides and keel? Do you prop up the boat precariously to polish the mast or something in Andy's weird world?

Most of your uninformed drivel is harmless - who cares what you think of Newport even though you have only been by bus or if you don't know the difference between polyprop and polyester rope or what a Dynastart is - nobody is going to be hurt by that twaddle, but suggesting a near-2 ton boat is propped up precariously with equipment not designed for the job is stupid, daft, reckless, dangerous - and no amount of bluster or insults gets away from that.

I've no idea what mind reading or Christmas has got to do with it. Just your usual diversions I expect.
 
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A raised boat, like a jacked up car, requires additional safety props ONCE IT IS RAISED which were applied as a matter of course; the only uninformed drivel is yours, as usual - you really are a sad case looking for something to attack aren't you ? No wonder you spend Christmas and probaly the rest of the time alone.
 
I think this has become the Angus and Andy show. With a total lack of goodwill to all men.......

Whilst there is some sense in the Jet's diatribe there is a rather more specific,detailed and informed discussion on lifting keel maintenance on the Etap Owners site.

I know from experience gained on working on an Etap that it is not necessary to lower the keel for routine mechanical maintenance. It would be OTT to have a VTOL trailer for just this.

Our practical experience of owning and using a lift keeler kept on a trailer was such that other routine maintenance such as cleaning and AF was done on lift on or off the trailer. We used to be lifted and left in the slings once a year for this. Our yard was not active on a Sunday so we usually had the hoist to ourselves from Saturday Pm to Monday AM.

I know of owners of both Etaps and Trappers who have had major keel maintenance including refurbishment to keel guides and re epoxying of the keel. This was effected by lifting the boat off the keel. This was done in safety, fully insured with the aid of a crane operator and a fork lift as manhandling and guiding and transporting an 800 kg lump of keel was near impossible without Superman's assistance.

Each unto there own. Happy new year Angus!
 
TSB240,

when people make and use the trestles I supply plans for, they get full instructions inc safety, also the technique for shifting trestles slightly to allow full antifouling coverage etc.

I and several owners have changed A22 keels, it doesn't require superman, fork lift or crane of any kind.

To remove a knackered keel from a raised boat, cut the plate with an angle grinder and haul the old ballast bulb& keel stub ( valuable for scrap ) with a chain block & tackle up a wooden ramp into a van.

The new keels - we are very lucky with Andersons, always at least one newly made keel ready to go on the shelf, courtesy of the ex-M.D, are supplied with the plate and bulb separate.

One fits the new plate into the boat, then lines the bulb up under it before fitting the interference fit 1.25" dia pin and resin holding the two together.

I'd think a version of this procedure could be made to work on most lift keelers.

No doubt somebody who has never done it will be along to try to slag me off for trying to be helpful...:rolleyes:
 
TSB240 said:
Our practical experience of owning and using a lift keeler kept on a trailer was such that other routine maintenance such as cleaning and AF was done on lift on or off the trailer. We used to be lifted and left in the slings once a year for this. Our yard was not active on a Sunday so we usually had the hoist to ourselves from Saturday Pm to Monday AM.
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The safe, sensible, low risk way to do it, and how I maintain my centre-board. It's not difficult or expensive to do it safely. There are no second chances in a crush accident with something the size of a boat.
 
Nobody suggested an unsafe high risk way of doing anything !

However our club disapproves of people antifouling less than a week before boats going in the hoist slings; to do that with wet paint and the high chance of transferring one's paint onto the next boat/s and buggering the slings would be extremely selfish.

We don't use pressure washers over the long weekend when the boats are being hauled out by the tractor driven hydraulic hoist either for much the same reason, it would selfishly create puddles which would be a pain for people to get through in the busy lift out ( or in for that matter ) and might even result in the tractor & hoist bogging down, though that's unlikely with the new drainage fitted by club volunteers.
 
Trailer stored boats can be antifouled any time. The only problem is the lifting keel is retracted. We usually cleaned off and prepped on lift out. Simple job to antifoul on launch day.

I don't think you can compare chopping up a keel with careful removal. The key difference in the Anderson refit is you are handling a relatively light weight ms plate and then bolting the club foot ballast so your handling less than a third of your ballast weight as you guide it into the keel box. It is impractical to do this with a 2 meter tall 800 kg single lump of cast iron
I certainly wouldn't be dragging a carefully epoxied and faired keel into position under a trestle mounted trailer sailer.8
 
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Shamaya said:
My mate and I have just bought Etap 23, to share over the summer holidays in Croatia. Plan is to tow her over there and live her on the trailer and then when any one of us arrive she can be launched and used.
Any one had experience of sailing and towing Etap 23?
Aparently they have a good reputation...
I hope...
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I haven't sailed an Etap 23, but I have got experience towing our little Benny which is the same size and weight.

Things I have discovered:

A boat this size is not really a true trailer sailer - to set up the rig takes time - if you can leave her with the mast up, all the better.

Our boat is so easy to tow, that with a modern 4x4 you could easily forget she was there. Obviously there's a bunch of regs your trailer / tow vehicle needs to comply with - there are plenty of threads on here if you use the search to have a dig around.

Dipping your trailer in salt water takes it's toll on the bearings, brake assembly etc. I don't dip mine if I can help it - if you do plan to dip yours, just bear in mind that it will gradually rot away without regular TLC.

I love Croatia and this sounds like a fun adventure - where are you planning to keep her?
 
TSB240 said:
Trailer stored boats can be antifouled any time. The only problem is the lifting keel is retracted. We usually cleaned off and prepped on lift out. Simple job to antifoul on launch day.

I don't think you can compare chopping up a keel with careful removal. The key difference in the Anderson refit is you are handling a relatively light weight ms plate and then bolting the club foot ballast so your handling less than a third of your ballast weight as you guide it into the keel box. It is impractical to do this with a 2 meter tall 800 kg single lump of cast iron
I certainly wouldn't be dragging a carefully epoxied and faired keel into position under a trestle mounted trailer sailer.8
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If trailer stored boats ' can be antifouled any time ' how do you paint the bits covered by the trailer steadies then ?

We're ignoring the problems of keel access with boat on trailer, and not least where to stow the trailer securely and hopefully inexpensively while the boat is off the trailer then are we ?

If you're incapable of working out how to fit your keel given the prompts, fitting a new keel is obviously beyond you; such terms as ' club foot ballast ' just show your ignorance as proven long ago, try learning such terms as centre of gravity, leading edge and end effect...

As this thread has become beset by w******rs with no real experience of lift keel boats or engineering let alone actually fitting keels themselves I shall bid you all goodbye; if any decent person wants the plans etc for lift keeler winter storage - all I ask is Anderson Owner's membership - I will happilly send the plans inc detail photo's.

Interesting how one offering to help gets attacked by pillocks who have sailed and done far less, they obviously - and quite rightly as it turns out - must feel inadequate.
 
Seajet said:
As this thread has become beset by w******rs with no real experience of lift keel boats or engineering let alone actually fitting keels themselves I shall bid you all goodbye
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Last winter I (with the help of a very handy crew member & our club's staff):

Removed the keel from our lift keel boat
Refinished it
Fitted it back into said boat

We also refinished the hull while we were at it.

We built some big timber frames to support the boat so that the hull could be painted with no props in the way.

While we were in there we had some new keel brackets fabricated and also thoroughly inspected the worm screw mechanism (it's a swing keel).

I was surprised by how over engineered everything is, and (apart from dealing with rust patches on the iron keel), I wont feel the need to go in there for quite some time (the worm screw can be greased from above via the top of the keel box).

My own personal advice to those who have bought a second hand lift keeler would be to get in there and have a look. Once you know how it all works and you have replaced anything that looks worn or corroded you'll have peace of mind and a much better idea what needs maintaining and when.
 
mrming said:
Removed the keel from our lift keel boat
Refinished it
Fitted it back into said boat
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Many years ago when I had a lift keel Extravert 22 I had the yard lift the hull off the keel using the hoist and the keel supported in a bolted together frame as the boat came off, then repeated for reassembly after shot blasting and re-finishing. It cost 2 boat lifts - about £100 back then in total.

All the normal lifting mechanism could be maintained with the keel in place.
 
AngusMcDoon said:
Many years ago when I had a lift keel Extravert 22 I had the yard lift the hull off the keel using the hoist and the keel supported in a bolted together frame as the boat came off, then repeated for reassembly after shot blasting and re-finishing. It cost 2 boat lifts - about £100 back then in total.

All the normal lifting mechanism could be maintained with the keel in place.
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Almost exactly what we did. We lifted the boat off the keel with the club's hoist. We then hung the keel up in an a-frame via the pivot hole while we worked on it.

To put it back in we built a jig to hold the keel upright, then with the boat suspended via an A-frame we raised the keel up to meet it with a small hydraulic scissor platform.
 
Seajet said:
seeing as in this subject like most things on planet Earth you have nothing useful to say but I have - when it comes to spending lonely times, as no-one will come along on nasty unstable trimarans with carp accomodation and even worse company - I and others will let you know...
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Translation, anyone? I think it's an insult, but I'm not entirely sure. :)
 
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Seajet said:
Little Grebe,

please take some sort of camcorder; it would be interesting in anything outside of the narrow comfort zone of the tri' I once remarked upon, to cause Angus's shallow attacks on my personality on me and my boat for ever more, not that he has anything to be defensive about...:rolleyes:
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Would you like to come too? You are more than welcome. You could bring your new camera. I'll have cheese on board and everything.
 
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