Establishing Clear Title to a Boat

nigelhudson

nigelhudson

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calculuscontracts.co.uk
Has anyone had to go through the process of establishing clear title to a boat? Can you tell me what's involved or point me to where I can find out?

I'm specifically referring to the situation where a yard is selling a boat under the Torts Act 1977 and title has then to be established.

Thanks
 
The MCA site does not appear to have a facility for enquiring into vessel registration Part 1 or Part 3 (SSR). Am I missing something?

However registration would only give details of previous ownership if it exsisted. Under the Tort Act the boatyard must make all reasonable efforts to contact the owner before acting as bailee to sell the boat - this presumably would include investigation of the registration. Therefore it is unlikely that the former registered owner would be contactable to confirm that they had relinquished title.

Presumably establishing title is more complicated than just registration (or re-registration) of the boat under Part1. I would have thought that there would be another step.
 
murraynorth said:
I hope this isn't stating the obvious, but I think the MCA should be your first port of call to check the Part 1 and Small Ships Registers for former ownership and any mortgage details; also you might try the International Telecommunications Union as well
www.itu.int/cgi-bin/htsh/mars/ship_search.sh
Click to expand...

It is perhaps not general knowledge, but an entry in the Small Ships Register, also known as Part III registration, does not establish title. The Marine and Coastguard agency spells this out clearly in its guidance notes:
1) What is Part III of the Register?

Part III (commonly called the Small Ships Register-SSR) is for ships which want only simple registration; it does not register title and you cannot register mortgages on this part of the Register. It provides an inexpensive, simple registration which proves the ships nationality (a kind of passport).
Click to expand...

Establishing "clear title" is difficult at the best of times - as Ken McCullough says, this is not a safe area for DIY law: consult a professional.
 
Boat Value

Suppose it depends on the boats value .. If you are only paying a a couple of thousand for it its hardly worth while paying a lawyer the same to prove you own it .. :rolleyes:
 
Freestyle said:
Establishing "clear title" is difficult at the best of times - as Ken McCullough says, this is not a safe area for DIY law: consult a professional.
Click to expand...

I am sure I can remember seeing a legal briefing sheet from the RYA, aimed at clubs, laying out the process needed to sell abandoned boats in yards. It might be worth having a poke around on the RYA website for that as a starting point.
 
exfinnsailor said:
Suppose it depends on the boats value .. If you are only paying a a couple of thousand for it its hardly worth while paying a lawyer the same to prove you own it .. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Yes, of course. A previous owner who has abandoned a boat, whether because he's lost interest and can't be a****d to sell her, or because he owes the yard more than she's worth, is unlikely to turn up and reclaim her. (Unlikely, but not impossible, especially if the new owner has lovingly restored her to her former glory.)

As exfinnsailor implies, "clear title" is perhaps a needless luxury for a low-budget boat.
 
Regarding MCA registry,there should be a normally wooden plaque aboard quoting registed tonnage and its registered number,quoting the name and the reg No to MCA should help with original ownership detail but may have been de-registered more recently when the registration became a repeated one every 5 years. If there is a radio aboar there may be details of the MMSI held by MCA too. Agree that a lawyer would be more approprate for this transaction.

ianat182
 
A sale under The Torts Act, gives clear Title to the Purchaser, any claim by the original owner will be against the Seller. See Section 12 cl 6 of Act (google will find it).
 
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If it is Part One registered the owner(s) will be on the docment and the shareholding. So that proves who owns it. Then call the Part One folks and ask if there is an outstanding mortage(s). I don't know what to do if it isn't Part One but the broker certainly will.
 
You should have a Bill of Sale from the seller, stating that the vessel is sold to you free of all liens and encumberances.

The seller is responsible for trying to contact the original owner since he is often bailee for the vessel (it has been in his safe keeping) once the seller has jumped through all the necessary hoops only then can he consider selling to you; since he is the one who has to deal with the previous owner.

Top tip when you buy her, change the locks.
 
An ugly situation is a boat that a friend has really got the hots for. Allegedly the real owner who allegedly is elderly, not well and wishing to emigrate has put the boat in the hands of an agent. Original asking price was £5,000 but absolute rock-bottom is £3,500 cash. Personally I don't think the boat is even worth £3,500 as its 3 cylinder Yanmar which has been overheated {severely?} has zero compression. The boat windows leak and the water ingress has badly damaged the boat's furniture that was not made from proper marine ply and is now coming apart. I think that aluminium from the overheated pistons has smeared over the piston rings. Experience with this long ago on overworked motorbike engines reveals that freeing the stuck rings is exceedingly difficult and often the trapped rings will snap. Yanmar ring sets cost about £72 per piston and the head gasket is another £72. OK RTV sealant could be used on the sump but its going to be a £300 touch before one even lifts a spanner. The cylinder head gives cause for concern as if it is cracked a new one costs £1000! The word "Refit" comes to mind.

The worst aspect is that the agent proposes to arrive at the marina gates and give some kind of receipt in exchange for an envelope containing £3,500. The boat was built in 1982 so VAT should not even apply so why is cash needed? With a car such an arrangement is OK as one does get the V5 AKA the Logbook and the keys but with boats things are different. The agent wants CASH which causes concern. As to the £3,500 presumably the would-be emigree needs it and cannot afford to take less but the boat and the proposed deal is a can of worms!

Any constructive advice would be most welcome.
 
"some kind of receipt in exchange for an envelope containing £3,500"

It's tempting to be part of an exciting deal in your favour, but brown paper envelopes stuffed with cash are likely to expose you to all kinds of headaches in due course. Run, don't walk; there are hundreds of good boats around with impeccable provenance at that price.

Don't be tempted ! It does not sound like a real bargain.
 
davey said:
An ugly situation is a boat that a friend has really got the hots for. Allegedly the real owner who allegedly is elderly, not well and wishing to emigrate has put the boat in the hands of an agent. Original asking price was £5,000 but absolute rock-bottom is £3,500 cash. Personally I don't think the boat is even worth £3,500 as its 3 cylinder Yanmar which has been overheated {severely?} has zero compression. The boat windows leak and the water ingress has badly damaged the boat's furniture that was not made from proper marine ply and is now coming apart. I think that aluminium from the overheated pistons has smeared over the piston rings. Experience with this long ago on overworked motorbike engines reveals that freeing the stuck rings is exceedingly difficult and often the trapped rings will snap. Yanmar ring sets cost about £72 per piston and the head gasket is another £72. OK RTV sealant could be used on the sump but its going to be a £300 touch before one even lifts a spanner. The cylinder head gives cause for concern as if it is cracked a new one costs £1000! The word "Refit" comes to mind.

The worst aspect is that the agent proposes to arrive at the marina gates and give some kind of receipt in exchange for an envelope containing £3,500. The boat was built in 1982 so VAT should not even apply so why is cash needed? With a car such an arrangement is OK as one does get the V5 AKA the Logbook and the keys but with boats things are different. The agent wants CASH which causes concern. As to the £3,500 presumably the would-be emigree needs it and cannot afford to take less but the boat and the proposed deal is a can of worms!

Any constructive advice would be most welcome.
Click to expand...

I don't quite understand the problem here .
If the boat is worth 3.5k or not is not really here or there , your friends could make a smaller offer or don't buy it .
Regarding the cash , has long as he get a bill of sale and full details of the seller and the agent it not going to make much different if he pays in cash or a bank transfer , at the end of the day the guy will still have his money if it turn out that his not the owner of the boat .
Or am I missing something ?
 
Not a big problem. Little is required legally for title to pass. You do your best to ensure that the person selling has good title - evidence that either bought the boat or has owned it for a long time so the chances of anybody else claiming title are almost non existent. Provided you get a receipt with sufficient detail to show who sold it who bought it, when and for how much that is all that is required legally. You can, of course use a Bill of Sale - model forms from either RYA or MCA. You can read up all about what constitutes title on the RYA site.

Would not worry about paying in cash - no different from a bank transfer from your point of view. it is the seller that has to worry about handling that sort of sum.

Of more concern is the wisdom of buying what sounds like a heap of junk which is likely to eat you out of house and home and still not be worth much!
 
I think I can sort out the 3GM30 engine as its only a baby and I've even got a Mercedes OM636 which would give the boat a bit more grunt (this came from a wooden boat that was rotten and unseaworthy so its owner stripped the boat and burnt it!) He-he! no more storage fees to pay! In actual fact a Yanmar 2QM15 would be sufficient to propel the boat using the old 4 BHP per ton yardstick but these days people want extra power for punching tides and headwinds but this does waste a lot of fuel.
The bad furniture could be sorted, possibly with a chainsaw but the leaking windows are a PITA. From what I gather, time and patience for fitting new rubber seals are needed rather than wads of cash. The man who wants the boat is a carpenter so it might be possible to buy hardwood furniture from a charity shop and re-model it. ( We are wise to chandlers and places where they call you "Sir") The good news is that the boat is GRP and has in-mast-reefing so its not all bad. It also has standing headroom unlike the racer that is for sale at £1000 less. The racer is all ready to go and has a good engine but unless one is vertically challenged its not much good.
Thanks to everyone for mentioning the Bill Of Sale. I think that the seller is reputable so things might work out OK.
The price of Yanmar parts is of course a bone of contention as I have bought brand new Land Rover 300 TDi cylinder heads for £220 (bare) and a set of four pistons with rings, clips and gudgeon pins for less than £100 so FOUR LR pistons cost less than ONE Yanmar piston which is smaller! Allegedly the LR parts which are perfectly acceptable, are made in South Africa where pay rates are lower.
Boats are hours of amusement as long as one doesn't have to pay "experts" as if that happens they are no fun at all. Often, if one has had a career in engineering, the best expert will be one's-self.
 
davey said:
I think I can sort out the 3GM30 engine as its only a baby and I've even got a Mercedes OM636 which would give the boat a bit more grunt (this came from a wooden boat that was rotten and unseaworthy so its owner stripped the boat and burnt it!) He-he! no more storage fees to pay! In actual fact a Yanmar 2QM15 would be sufficient to propel the boat using the old 4 BHP per ton yardstick but these days people want extra power for punching tides and headwinds but this does waste a lot of fuel.
The bad furniture could be sorted, possibly with a chainsaw but the leaking windows are a PITA. From what I gather, time and patience for fitting new rubber seals are needed rather than wads of cash. The man who wants the boat is a carpenter so it might be possible to buy hardwood furniture from a charity shop and re-model it. ( We are wise to chandlers and places where they call you "Sir") The good news is that the boat is GRP and has in-mast-reefing so its not all bad. It also has standing headroom unlike the racer that is for sale at £1000 less. The racer is all ready to go and has a good engine but unless one is vertically challenged its not much good.
Thanks to everyone for mentioning the Bill Of Sale. I think that the seller is reputable so things might work out OK.
The price of Yanmar parts is of course a bone of contention as I have bought brand new Land Rover 300 TDi cylinder heads for £220 (bare) and a set of four pistons with rings, clips and gudgeon pins for less than £100 so FOUR LR pistons cost less than ONE Yanmar piston which is smaller! Allegedly the LR parts which are perfectly acceptable, are made in South Africa where pay rates are lower.
Boats are hours of amusement as long as one doesn't have to pay "experts" as if that happens they are no fun at all. Often, if one has had a career in engineering, the best expert will be one's-self.
Click to expand...

Wow .... that's a lot of behemoths slayed, high horses brought down to size and old chestnuts thoroughly roasted ..... all in the one post!

Loved it! :)

Richard
 
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