Epirb and dry suit v life-raft

jamie N said:
Falling in cold 'North Sea' water, without any heat loss prevention brings into play a '1-10-1'' timetable I read once.
In cold water there's the 1 minute of hyperventilation as the cold hits the person.
After that phase there's 10 minutes of being able to function, donning gloves, deploying sprayhood or EPIRB etc.
There follows the 1 hour of decline leading to death.
A survival suit with the standard offshore 3 layers beneath it will keep a person going for far longer than that I'd believe just by the nature of these suits that I wear 2-3 times a month now, and comparing them to the 'Old wetsuits' that I used a lifetime ago as a submarine swimmer where on occasion one could be in the water for an hour also.
I'd hate to try and don a proper survival suit on a 'smallish' boat in any sort of inclement weather, and wearing the suit plus a lifejacket on a small boat would give real issues by virtue of bulk and 'snag profile'.
Surely the solution would be a 2 piece Fladen type of flotation suit where the survival times are very good if bad things happen and can be worn normally without constraint. They're normal in usage at many boatyards that I've been to recently in Scotland over the winter, also very common on MFV's I believe.
They're about £120 I know, but if it was produced with a 'Yottie' label on it they'd have an extra zero on the end some might say....
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any more thoughts on this option then chaps

it sounds affordable

I will not be setting off unless the weatherforecast is as perfect as it can be

after katie L is a small boat

but I have been to the Orkneys twice for the BBC and it was such a wonderful place I would really love to explore the islands

D
 
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Jamie N and Even Chance -

I take your point about the unweildiness of a real survival suit. The Fladen type suits certainly have a place. I just wanted to point out that a survival suit might keep you afloat and might keep you warm, but it won't necessarily keep you alive on its own. To keep you alive in the water you not only have to stay afloat and warm but you have to keep your face out of the water and the water out of your face.

For someone who doesn't have the budget and space for a full liferaft, a survival suit + lifejacket + PLB would be better than nothing in the case of foundering. It is not a practical combination for general sailing. But I for one see the life jacket as an essential addition to a survival suit. Even if the survival suit (such as the Fladen) has inherent flotation.

My 2p.
 
My suit was only £70 or so from a fishing tackle shop. You could always wear a wetsuit under it. I just bought a 3mm full wetsuit from Tesco direct for £35.

Dont really get hooked up on the worries of the place though Dylan. I normally go sailing in my regular clothes up here. Its no different to your regular cruising grounds really. If in real doubt, Im sure someone could sail over the firth with you in company. Folk will keep you right when you get here anyway. We're very nice people really...
 
dylanwinter said:
I was thinking about getting hold of a dry suit and using an Epirb in the hope that the dry suit would keep me alive long enough for the "Beam me up Scottie"

sensible or crazy?
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My biggest concern is that on a boat hardly big enough to swing a cat, could you swing your arms
and legs around quickly enough to don a dry suite before the boat became awash.

Check out Mullion or similar wet suits. Those you can wear while sailing and go on like a boiler suite.

http://www.uk-fishing-tackle.co.uk/...ucts_id=525&osCsid=hp5p8a0oeu2nrr1lrofnutmk16


They were developed for the North Sea and are currently being used by folk servicing the building of the Forth Bridge.
 
With a diving drysuit and decent undersuit you would be OK in the water for a good long time, last winter we did two 1 hour dives under 2" of ice in 2C water

I had a standard summer-weight undersuit, a front entry membrane drysuit, neoprene socks inside my neoprene socks, O3 dive boots which are like decent hiking boots, a 7mm hood, and most importantly dry gloves - without the dry gloves I've done 40min dives in 2C but couldn't feel or use my hands at all and wouldn't have been able to rescue myself or operate any equipment. With the drygloves on I am happy doing a couple of hour plus winter dives and happy that I can operate any kit I need to, the extra fat layer I have also helps to keep me warm as well.

You could helm in a diving or dinghy drysuit and drygloves but probably not wearing a hood as they are tight fitting and would be uncomfortable after a few hours but you could keep one in a pocket and put on if needed. I've worn a breathable Gill dinghy drysuit for 12 hours at a stretch when kayaking but they do get a bit warm but are nice and flexible.

Downside to wearing a drysuit for a while is you have to get either a "comfort zip" or better still a pee valve...

I've just sold two Fladen survival suits as I had never used them as I was much more comfortable in either my dinghy or diving drysuit, they are quite thick and would hinder movement
 
gadget user said:
Your idea is the same as that of some pilots of small aircraft crossing the English Channel.
Their craft are not large enough for life rafts and I have been supplying them with Gore-tex dry suits / survival suits.

.
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We used to nip across the channel for the weekend in a Piper Comanche 180, usually to Le Touquet As the recommended crossing routes for light a/c are(were?) out at 3,500ft and back at 1,500ft, we wore LJs for the crossing and kept a (very small) 4 man raft in the cabin. If the engine had quit at the lower altitude, we would have very little time to sort anything out before ditching. And the idea of getting the LR out of the baggage hold before the a/c sank was not attractive. Luckily we never needed it, though we did have the undercarrage fail coming into Southend....

The difference on your intended trip is how long before you can get help. In the channel, probably not too long. Up there, rather longer...

Personally, I would watch the weather, talk to people and then go for it. I never expected anybody to come help me if I set off on a trip.
 
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Discussing life rafts at premium life rafts they quoted some research ( do not know whose) that showed that the average time in a life-raft prior to rescue in european waters was 45 minutes
Personally i would forget drysuits etc & wear good 3 layer systems that can be adjusted to suit conditions then have the epirb etc plus liferaft quite often you could have a bit of luck & drift to land

I believe that some years ago Avon sold rapid inflation kits for Avon dinghies there has to be a case for such things now. Worth looking for something. Inflatables are fairly stable & have double use on small yachts.
I am sure one could survive for some time in one & actually row to safe haven given a bit of luck
Useful in MOB situations too

Anyone out there want to start production up again?
 
Daydream believer said:
Anyone out there want to start production up again?
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Like many multi use things, does neither job well and very expensive. Could not be classed as a liferaft and lets face it most people buy a liferaft to satisfy either regulations or salve their conscience. No intention of actually using it. So the idea never caught on in the market. £500 for a dinghy, £700 for a liferaft or £1500 for an inflatable with rapid inflation and a tent on top. No contest.
 
My set up is:

A boat that probably won't sink (Etap)

Breathable ex navy drysuit. Ebay £120, get it on as soon as it get's seriously lumpy or rains heavily

Tiny 5kg liferaft in a black bag in a locker. £250 Ebay with three year ticket http://www.survivalproductsinc.com/fourman.htm

Plb around the neck whenever at sea

Set up a ebay alert for the drysuit and liferaft and eventually you will pick one up at a good price.
 
Hi Dylan
It will come down to what makes you comfortable to sail those water’s.
I bought a Zodiac canister raft for my boat. It makes me comfortable. I will never use it so it’s a waste of money. But J.I.K. The small 4 man valise type is all you need for placebo effect to kick in. some on already suggested renting. *
 
Having had to jump into the Morray Firth in a quick don dry suit and then swim to/right and get into a life-raft once a year in my old Nimrod days can I suggest you kiss off the idea of bobbing around in a dry suit as a none starter. As has been said 10-15 minutes tops.
 
Tranona said:
Like many multi use things, does neither job well and very expensive. Could not be classed as a liferaft and lets face it most people buy a liferaft to satisfy either regulations or salve their conscience. No intention of actually using it. So the idea never caught on in the market. £500 for a dinghy, £700 for a liferaft or £1500 for an inflatable with rapid inflation and a tent on top. No contest.
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Does not need a canopy i am not talking full on liferaft but a means of staying afloat for a day
I suggest that your £ 700-00 for auto inflation seems a bit high
A new bottle for my liferaft inc filling was less than £100-00 this year so surely the whole lot would come to less than half your estimate. My dinghy cost me £ 300 new. It is not so much the cost one would save but the weight & room taken up on the yacht that would be saved
One also has to consider upkeep of a liferaft. every 3 years there is a couple of hundred £'s o pay for servicing
However, Dylan could investigate renting a liferaft. Premium liferafts at Burnham do this

As for conscience, i fully intend using mine if the boat goes down. That is nothing to do with regs. In fact i made a grab to release the straps 2 weeks ago when a container ship missed me by 2 boat lengths. Fortunately his bow wave pushed me away a bit. & yes the EPIRB would have gone off as well!!! If my mast had gone then DSC would have been out of the picture
 
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Daydream believer said:
Does not need a canopy i am not talking full on liferaft but a means of staying afloat for a day
I suggest that your £ 700-00 for auto inflation seems a bit high
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That was the price differential when they were on the market, but did include the canopy.

The point I am making is that proper liferafts are so cheap now - about 30% of the price in real terms compared with 20 years ago when dual purpose solutions were available. Add to that good inflatables are also a fraction of the price of even the simplest Redcrest - mine was over £300 in 1980 and you can even now but a good PVC equivalent for the same price. It may well be practical to fit just cylinders to existing dinghies, but think the commercial potential will be small.

Not convinced of the value of a dinghy in a survival situation. Most of the reports of actual usage are in extreme conditions and even dedicated liferafts have difficulties such as swamping, flipping or breaking up. There have however been instances of survival in open boats, some as a supplement to a liferaft or in benign conditions. If you read the reports of liferaft deployments you find very few are of the "oh dear the boat is sinking - time to step onto the liferaft" type where a dinghy might be an alternative.
 
dylanwinter said:
At some stage during my journey around the UK I am hoping to get to the Orkneys

It will be in the summer but the water is still cold

I know that in the scale of things it is not a massive undertaking

however,

in preparation for something awful happening

attacked by a whale, centre-plate bolt break and boat fill with water, stuck in an un-predicted hurricane, run out of popcorn - you know the sort of thing

I was thinking about getting hold of a dry suit and using an Epirb in the hope that the dry suit would keep me alive long enough for the "Beam me up Scottie"

sensible or crazy?
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Did you check this?

http://www.yachtingworld.com/news/533868/testing-the-tps-survival-suit-video

Seems you'd survive longer than 10 minutes (as claimed on here) in one of these.

One sold on eBay today for £140

More details of the suit here: http://www.guycotten.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=353
 
I don't know how I am alive after spending up to 40 minutes underwater in a drysuit in cold NE of Scotland waters in March.
 
OR4751 said:
Did you check this?

http://www.yachtingworld.com/news/533868/testing-the-tps-survival-suit-video

Seems you'd survive longer than 10 minutes (as claimed on here) in one of these.

One sold on eBay today for £140

More details of the suit here: http://www.guycotten.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=353
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If that is a Guy Cotten TPS it will keep you warm. I have worn one and it is stiflingly unbearable after 5 minutes at room temperature.

But see my earlier post. Someone drowned wearing one of these after he fell overboard. Youve also got to keep water out of your airways.
 
I would not worry about Orkney. The Pentland Firth can be a bit mischievous sometimes though. Plan your passage carefully and speak to the local boys before you make the crossing.
As for the question, Raft or Suit? The truth is if you go over the wall or sink in the Firth it won't matter so my advice is: Don't fall in!
 
cryan said:
I would not worry about Orkney. The Pentland Firth can be a bit mischievous sometimes though. Plan your passage carefully and speak to the local boys before you make the crossing.
As for the question, Raft or Suit? The truth is if you go over the wall or sink in the Firth it won't matter so my advice is: Don't fall in!
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I am sure you are correct

but it is good to have plan B - even if plan B is not a very good one

D
 
Buck Turgidson said:
Having had to jump into the Morray Firth in a quick don dry suit and then swim to/right and get into a life-raft once a year in my old Nimrod days can I suggest you kiss off the idea of bobbing around in a dry suit as a none starter. As has been said 10-15 minutes tops.
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Agree whole-heartedly. As any experienced technical diver will tell you - all the hi tech thermal layers in the world + a Drysuit will not keep you warm. The numbing of hands & feet while you wait out your deco can be excruciating. On the surface, the heat loss from the head will have your body in shock in ten minutes.

The reason they wear the survival type suits in boatyards is they don't expect to be in the water for long before they are picked up. There is also a reason why 'a lot' of trawler men, crabbers etc can't swim - and it is not a pleasant one.

Di
 
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