Ensigns/flags

chinita said:
I can't see where that link says that it can be flown from the stern. It is a 'Jack' and therefore is flown from the 'Jackstaff' at the stem.
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If you read all the way to the on it is not tht it is specifically allowed, more that it is not disallowed.

My point is that the Union Jack is flown from the stern of some ships. That is also a Jack. Why not fly the white bordered one there as well.

Where in law does it say a jack has to be flown from the bow.
Where in law does it say you must not fly the hit bordered flag from the stern.

Happy to drop this if someone can show me specifically.
 
Ex-SolentBoy said:
If you read all the way to the on it is not tht it is specifically allowed, more that it is not disallowed.

My point is that the Union Jack is flown from the stern of some ships. That is also a Jack. Why not fly the white bordered one there as well.

Where in law does it say a jack has to be flown from the bow.
Where in law does it say you must not fly the hit bordered flag from the stern.

Happy to drop this if someone can show me specifically.
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Technically the Union Jack is only a jack when flown from the bow. Pedants will tell you that really it is the Union Flag (though I disagree with this, Union Jack in common language is just a name, not a description).

Anyway, law or no a jack is a flag flown from the jack staff at the bow of the ship. That is the definition. Fly it somewhere else and suddenly it isn't a jack and then the laws start to kick in.
 
Woodlouse said:
Technically the Union Jack is only a jack when flown from the bow. Pedants will tell you that really it is the Union Flag (though I disagree with this, Union Jack in common language is just a name, not a description).

Anyway, law or no a jack is a flag flown from the jack staff at the bow of the ship. That is the definition. Fly it somewhere else and suddenly it isn't a jack and then the laws start to kick in.
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Sorry to pedantic, but definitions are not law. The law is the law and I am still waiting for someone to show me that what I propose is not legal.

Clearly, some boats do fly this flag at the stern (Mersey comment earlier).
 
Ex-SolentBoy said:
If you read all the way to the on it is not tht it is specifically allowed, more that it is not disallowed.

My point is that the Union Jack is flown from the stern of some ships. That is also a Jack. Why not fly the white bordered one there as well.

Where in law does it say a jack has to be flown from the bow.
Where in law does it say you must not fly the hit bordered flag from the stern.

Happy to drop this if someone can show me specifically.
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On which ships is the Union Jack flown from the stern?

If it is flown from the stern it is an 'Ensign'. The Union Flag is not flown from the stern but the Maritime (Red, Blue or White) Ensign is - because it is an Ensign and not a 'Jack'.

By definition, the 'Flag' flown from the bow is a 'Jack' - because it is raised on the 'Jackstaff'.

RN ships in harbour fly the Union Jack at the bow, on the Jackstaff - because that is their wont.

Civilian ships may fly the Pilot Jack at the bow - on the Jackstaff - if they wish.

They may not fly a Jack from any other position because, if they did, it would be an Ensign or a Flag (it is a Flag if flown from any other position other than the stern)........and the Union Jack, or Pilot Jack, is not an Ensign or a Flag. It is a 'Jack' and may only be flown from the 'Jackstaff'.

I blame whoever invented the Jackstaff!!
 
Ex-SolentBoy said:
If you read all the way to the on it is not tht it is specifically allowed, more that it is not disallowed.

My point is that the Union Jack is flown from the stern of some ships. That is also a Jack. Why not fly the white bordered one there as well.

Where in law does it say a jack has to be flown from the bow.
Where in law does it say you must not fly the hit bordered flag from the stern.

Happy to drop this if someone can show me specifically.
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I hope this is an adequate answer to your perfectly reasonable question. I'm sure that you have read the relevant bit of the Merchant Shipping Act.

1. It doesn't talk about jacks, and doesn't talk about jackstaffs.
2. It is illegal to fly a Union Flag/Union Jack on a British ship that is not one of Her Majesty's Ships.
3. It is lawful to fly a Union Flag with a white border. The Act says nothing whatsoever about where you fly it. If you want to fly it at the stern of your boat then do so.

The Act states when you must hoist the red ensign or other proper national colours. The Union Flag with a white border is not proper national colours (as defined in the Act), so best not to hoist it when entering a foreign port or when signalled by one of Her Majesty's Ships.

Someone earlier suggested that flying English, Welsh or Scottish flags is illegal. It's not, since the constituent countries of the UK are not nations so their flags are not "distinctive national colours".

If you are in British or international waters minding your own business you can fly what you like except the flags detailed in the Act.

My boat sometimes wears a light blue ensign - I take some pride from my many years of service and I feel privileged to be able to hoist it - it's well worth the subscription to RAFSA to be allowed to have a permit and the money helps to support sailing for those currently serving. I also sail under a red ensign - for example, in my home waters when I sail under the burgee of my local club - I don't think it would be courteous to other club members to fly the RAFSA burgee when in the club's local waters.

I don't think having a light blue ensign makes me any better than anybody else, and I can't for the life of me understand why some people feel so bitter and twisted about people who choose to hoist something other than a red ensign.
 
Ex-SolentBoy said:
Sorry to pedantic, but definitions are not law. The law is the law and I am still waiting for someone to show me that what I propose is not legal.

Clearly, some boats do fly this flag at the stern (Mersey comment earlier).
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Sorry to disappoint you but laws are clarified and defined by definitions. The whole first chapter of the Colregs is devoted to definitions held in law for example.

Basically you cannot use the Pilot Jack, or the Union Jack as Ensigns because they are quite simply, not defined as Ensigns.

Read the comment about the Mersey ferry again, it states that it flew the Pilot Jack from the stem, not stern.
 
Woodlouse said:
Basically you cannot use the Pilot Jack, or the Union Jack as Ensigns because they are quite simply, not defined as Ensigns.
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That is complete tosh. Read the Merchant Shipping Act - it's actually written in pretty clear and simple English. It says nothing whatsoever about the definition of jacks or ensigns. It talks about flags and colours. It does not prescribe where on a ship a flag must or must not be hoisted.

You should not hoist the Union Flag because it is an offence to do so. You can hoist the Union Flag with a white border wherever and whenever you like - it's specifically permitted by the Act.
 
andygc said:
That is complete tosh. Read the Merchant Shipping Act - it's actually written in pretty clear and simple English. It says nothing whatsoever about the definition of jacks or ensigns. It talks about flags and colours. It does not prescribe where on a ship a flag must or must not be hoisted.

You should not hoist the Union Flag because it is an offence to do so. You can hoist the Union Flag with a white border wherever and whenever you like - it's specifically permitted by the Act.
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That's what I thought. Thanks. Off to buy one.

Think I might printout the relevant part of the act to give to any busybodies who want to query my plan.:D
 
Brilliant.

An Ensign thread with a result! I bow most humbly and gratefully to the Merchant Shipping Act

Pilot Jack from now on - and a bloody big one.

As there are only two of us, so far, presumably this makes us superior to even the White Ensign bearers??
 
Ex-SolentBoy said:
Having done a bit of reading it seems that this flag is acceptable national colours so the stern is acceptable both from a convention and legality standpoint.
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Sounds so far as though from a legal standpoint yes, but from a convention standpoint no. That is to say, nobody flies it at the stern. Convention says stem alone (unless you're a pilot).

Someone will come along now and point out that I'm wrong and that legally they can, thus confirming they haven't read the above.
 
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Pilot Jack at the pointed End and Blue at the flat end,Thats how its been on my punt for years and thats how it will stay (god willing) and of course burgee at the mast head :-)
 
Now that we have established it is perfectly legal, is anyone going to join me in flying one of these?

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Surely it looks much nicer and should be a good conversation starter?
 
Ex-SolentBoy said:
Now that we have established it is perfectly legal, is anyone going to join me in flying one of these?

Photo%2016-04-2012%2014%2046%2038.gif


Surely it looks much nicer and should be a good conversation starter?
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I will, as I said in Post 194. I have got a rather nice, old and very well sewn Union Flag. I have hidden SWMBO's wine until she has put a white border on it.

I can also see a commercial opportunity - selling permits for the pilot jack. nobody else is doing it and we better jump in before the RYA does.

We could run courses in how to raise and lower, sell brooches and ties, we could even have our own pilot jack burgee and house flag. Of course, there will be variants of the burgee for our 'officers'. We could offer introductory 'officer status' to the first thousand applicants at £500.00 a time.

After continuous membership of, say, six months we could offer platinum standard membership for just an additional £600.00.

Naturally, we would call it the Royal Pilot Jack Association.
 
chinita said:
After continuous membership of, say, six months we could offer platinum standard membership for just an additional £600.00.

Naturally, we would call it the Royal Pilot Jack Association.
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No, no, no!!

You do the Gold Membership first, and only introduce the Platinum once Gold Membership has been so devalued because everyone has got one. ;)

I think Amex invented that principle.
 
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