Ensigns/flags

[Poignard]

He doesn't have to be in command, just on board. Should be lowered when the w/h steps off .

Your post has prompted me to find the handbook of my association and look up the relevant section.

Quote: "The Ensign shall be worn only if the owner holds a Warrant or Permit . . . and provided the owner and such a Warrant or Permit are on board the vessel when the Ensign is worn. When the yacht is in harbour or anchored near the shore the owner need not be on board but must be in effective control of the yacht."

I think you owe me a pinkers, old boy.

I do dip it to RN ships (on the regrettably few occasions I see one!) and also to "Warships of all Nations".

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

Not sure I follow the language.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1995/21/section/4
4 Penalty for carrying improper colours.
(1)If any of the following colours, namely—
(a)any distinctive national colours except—
(i)the red ensign,
(ii)the Union flag (commonly known as the Union Jack) with a white border, or
(iii)any colours authorised or confirmed under section 2(3)(b); or
(b)any colours usually worn by Her Majesty’s ships or resembling those of Her Majesty, or
(c)the pendant usually carried by Her Majesty’s ships or any pendant resembling that pendant,
are hoisted on board any British ship without warrant from Her Majesty or from the Secretary of State, the master of the ship, or the owner of the ship (if on board), and every other person hoisting them shall be guilty of an offence.

Does this mean I can fly the Union flag with white border from the stern of my boat?

One of these.

Wiki, that error free reference says:-

The Pilot Jack (the white-bordered Union Jack) ceased to be a pilot signal in 1970. It is only used as the civil jack (also named merchant jack, but recreational boats may also use it). It is not very often used.

 

[chinita]

Not sure I follow the language.



Does this mean I can fly the Union flag with white border from the stern of my boat?

One of these.

Wiki, that error free reference says:-

I think you fly it from the stem on a pole.

The Mersey ferry I was on a few months ago flew one from the stem. I don't know where they nicked it from.

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

I think you fly it from the stem on a pole.

The Mersey ferry I was on a few months ago flew one from the stem. I don't know where they nicked it from.

But do I have to? I like flags at the back of my boat.

Having done a bit of reading it seems that this flag is acceptable national colours so the stern is acceptable both from a convention and legality standpoint.

 

[awol]

Your post has prompted me to find the handbook of my association and look up the relevant section.

Quote: "The Ensign shall be worn only if the owner holds a Warrant or Permit . . . and provided the owner and such a Warrant or Permit are on board the vessel when the Ensign is worn. When the yacht is in harbour or anchored near the shore the owner need not be on board but must be in effective control of the yacht."

I think you owe me a pinkers, old boy.

I beg to differ. May I offer a quote from the RGYC (not my one, some upstart colonial yin!)

2) WEARING THE ENSIGN

i) The Ensign may only be worn when the permit holder is in command of the yacht for which the permit is granted, and when the permit is onboard.
ii) In no circumstances may the Club’s privileged Ensign be worn on its own without the Club’s Burgee (or a Flag Officer’s Broad Pennant).
iii) In harbour the Ensign shall be hoisted at 0800 hours local time and lowered at sunset, or 2100 hours, or when the owner goes ashore, whichever is the earliest.
iv) In harbour or at anchor the Ensign shall be worn from an ensign staff at the stern of the vessel.
v) At sea the Ensign shall be worn in daylight hours, when passing another vessel or when in sight of land. The ensign must always be worn when entering or leaving a foreign port.
vi) At sea the ensign shall be worn as follows:
(a) On a Bermudan sloop on the ensign staff or two thirds of the way up the leech or backstay.
(b) On Bermudan ketches and yawls at the head of the after mast.
(c) On gaff rigged yachts at the end of the gaff on the mast.
(d) On power craft from the gaff of the main mast or from the ensign staff at the stern.

 

[Poignard]

"The Ensign may only be worn when the permit holder is in command of the yacht for which the permit is granted, and when the permit is onboard."


When the permit holder is in command certainly, but it does not say he has to be onboard to be in command. It is only the permit which is not allowed a run ashore.

When I am rowing out in the dinghy with a kedge to drag my boat off the mud (as occasionally happens ) I am still 'in command'.

I think that's a double pinkers you owe me, old boy.

 

[prv]

iii) In harbour the Ensign shall be hoisted at 0800 hours local time and lowered at sunset, or 2100 hours, or when the owner goes ashore, whichever is the earliest.

The phrasing isn't clear, but I think it's intended to refer to when the owner goes ashore for the evening, not intending to return until after lowering time. He should then lower the ensign before leaving, rather than leaving it up until pub chucking-out time. That's normal practice. I don't think it means he should lower the ensign when popping ashore for a tub of seacock grease at two o'clock in the afternoon.

Pete

 

[Tranona]

I beg to differ. May I offer a quote from the RGYC (not my one, some upstart colonial yin!)

That may well be that club's "instructions", but suggest that much of it derives from good practice rather than any "legal" requirement. Suggest you look on the back of your permit at the Conditions. It covers i) and ii), but is silent on iv), v) and vi). iii) is in Condition 16 which suggests that "Permit holders may wish to comply with the custom ......" - so therefore not a strict Condition.

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

But do I have to? I like flags at the back of my boat.

Having done a bit of reading it seems that this flag is acceptable national colours so the stern is acceptable both from a convention and legality standpoint.

Asked this before and didnt get a sensible answer then either.

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222739&page=5

 

[awol]

That may well be that club's "instructions", but suggest that much of it derives from good practice rather than any "legal" requirement. Suggest you look on the back of your permit at the Conditions. It covers i) and ii), but is silent on iv), v) and vi). iii) is in Condition 16 which suggests that "Permit holders may wish to comply with the custom ......" - so therefore not a strict Condition.

I keep on meaning to look at the permit but it is, of course, on the boat but somehow all this crap doesn't mean a damn when I'm on board.

 

[chinita]

But do I have to? I like flags at the back of my boat.

No problem flying a Flag, but this is a Jack and must be flown from the Jackstaff at the stem - and then only when berthed (not at anchor).

I think that the reason that the Mersey Ferries fly it when underway is that all Ferry skippers are qualified Mersey Pilots.

Like this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/arthurjohnpicton/3799354042/

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

No problem flying a Flag, but this is a Jack and must be flown from the Jackstaff at the stem - and then only when berthed (not at anchor).

I think that the reason that the Mersey Ferries fly it when underway is that all Ferry skippers are qualified Mersey Pilots.

Like this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/arthurjohnpicton/3799354042/

Thank you. Where does it say that it must only be flown from the stem and when berthed? I am interested in the law, not convention.

 

[Tranona]

I keep on meaning to look at the permit but it is, of course, on the boat but somehow all this crap doesn't mean a damn when I'm on board.

Quite right. Anybody with the normal quota of commonsense would read, mark learn and inwardly digest so the correct usage comes naturally and you don't get into trouble with the nitpickers.

 

[Flying Penguin]

Rather than start a new thread, can I ask a really stupid question whilst there are people interested in flag etiquette around?

If, like most yachts of less than Abramovich scale, the ensign is pretty much fixed in a static position on the staff, what would pass for dipping? All references I can find refer to lowering it to the 2/3 position using the flag halyard, but for anything under 100 foot that represents about a 6 inch movement, if there is an actual flag halyard at all.....

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Rather than start a new thread, can I ask a really stupid question whilst there are people interested in flag etiquette around?

If, like most yachts of less than Abramovich scale, the ensign is pretty much fixed in a static position on the staff, what would pass for dipping? All references I can find refer to lowering it to the 2/3 position using the flag halyard, but for anything under 100 foot that represents about a 6 inch movement, if there is an actual flag halyard at all.....

Pick true staff up and raise it slightly just before the Navy vessel passes. As it passes, extent the ensign out horizontal and lower the top part to point at the water, away from the stern. If you get a response from the Navy vessel raise the staff from pointing down and return to its normal position after the Navy vessel have lowered and raised their ensign. If you don't get a response wait until the vessel passes and then place back in the socket.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

30,000 according to this page. Combine it with the RN losses though during the same period and you get over 95,000 killed and wounded serving under all three of our Ensigns. Personally, as long as there is a union jack in the corner I think you are showing all the respect necessary.

I got the figures from the Memorial Service in Liverpool last year where
60,000 was quoted. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-14747258

I think your point about the Union Jack is a good one.

 

[Flying Penguin]

Pick true staff up and raise it slightly just before the Navy vessel passes. As it passes, extent the ensign out horizontal and lower the top part to point at the water, away from the stern. If you get a response from the Navy vessel raise the staff from pointing down and return to its normal position after the Navy vessel have lowered and raised their ensign. If you don't get a response wait until the vessel passes and then place back in the socket.

Brill, thanks

 

[chinita]

Thank you. Where does it say that it must only be flown from the stem and when berthed? I am interested in the law, not convention.

I can answer the first part; because the Jackstaff is at the stem - and that is the position from which a 'Jack' must be flown.

One link:

http://www.mrflag.com/p/4944/UK_Civil_Jack__Pilot_Flag_.html

Give me a little while and i shall try to answer the second part.

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

I can answer the first part; because the Jackstaff is at the stem - and that is the position from which a 'Jack' must be flown.

One link:

http://www.mrflag.com/p/4944/UK_Civil_Jack__Pilot_Flag_.html

Give me a little while and i shall try to answer the second part.

Thanks. I have seen that site. The thing is though, that is just a commercial site. You can find others that say you can fly it at the stern in this country if you want to.

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/gb-jkpil.html

It doesn't seem to be referred to at all in the shipping act.

 

[chinita]

Anyway, whilst I am looking, this particular Act seems to answer your question of whether you can fly your Pilot jack as an ensign:

Article 1 of the 1862 Queen's Regulations reads;
"All Ships and Vessels belonging to Her Majesty's subjects, shall wear a Red Ensign, with the Union in the Upper Canton next to the Staff; and shall use a British Union Jack, with a border of White, of one-fifth of the Jack, as a Pilot Flag, in all parts of the world; except such Yachts or other Vessels as may have Warrants from the Admiralty to display other Ensigns, Colours, or Pendants."