Ensigns/flags

[timbartlett]

Tut, Tut! It should come down at sunset!!!!!!!!!

Why?

(That's a rehetorical question BTW: my understanding is that it is British "tradition " because Samuel Pepys reckoned that the 17th century navy could save a bit of cash by not having its flags flapping during the hours of darkness.

But it's certainly not universal, and even the RN dos not take its ensigns down when at sea.

I'm sure I remember someone (RYA ??) advising yotties to leave their ensigns up overnight when in foreign harbours)

 

[robertj]

I usually fly a big red one off the mizzen peak. But then again I like to fly this one, just to annoy the cornish.
They seem to be getting a lot more popular judging by the number of sellers now rather than just the one when I bought mine. But honestly, does anyone really care? Sure I do get annoyed when a large mobo chugs annoyingly past moorings with a blue ensign. I get just as annoyed when a tw@t on a jetski hurtles past, in fact, more so. The colour of the ensign, or not, matters not a bit, though it may start a conversation if you are rafted up to someone with an unusual one.

is it suppose to have a green background?
why would you wish to annoy the Cornish? I think you will find they don't take offence easily.
I do wonder about your type, not doubt you live their but hate everything about it being not the same as from where you originate?
Why not stop trying to annoy decent people, and just mix, you will find it more rewarding in the future.
Another tip if you live or visit their, wave back when fellow local sailers give a friendly wave it will help no end.
Do carry on flying your flag as you will find that you're the laughing stock my dear fellow.

Bob

hope this helps


Bob

 

[robertj]

I can ask again I suppose, why not make the ensign all one colour either red/blue/white?
I have noticed being near pendennis shipyard where super yachts are built and refurbished that all British registered yachts carry the Red Ensign. I have honestly have to say not one Blue. The rich and pivilged seem to fly the red with pride yet could easily fly a blue.
Have these billionaire actually realised that Red is the colour?
I for one would prefer a single colour for our national ensign, don't care if red etc but keep to just one.

If the powers to be said we will open a vote to the single colour choice what would the forum vote for?

I'm going for blue to match my sprayhood ect

bob

 

[Flying Penguin]

I can ask again I suppose, why not make the ensign all one colour either red/blue/white?

More to the point why would you? To sooth the chips on the shoulders of people that feel somehow intimidated by non-red ensigns? I don't see anyone has established they do any harm.

Throwing away traditions simply in the name of pseudo-egalitarian blandness seems like an act of wanton vandalism to me.

And no I don't have a blue ensign...

 

[Litotes]

Might be a long thread, but much of it is surely of interest?

Of interest, yes. Not because of the issue of flags, which seems to me to be a non issue, but because of the strange attitudes exposed, especially in the minds of people who seem to be determined to project on to others some resentment of their own.

There is also the misunderstanding of the term "privilege" (a word that seems inflammatory to some) as it is used in this context. If you are stopped by the police for a minor traffic infingement, you are quite likely to be lectured by some fresh faced young constable about the fact that driving is "a privilege, not a right". Of course, that doesn't mean that driving is only for the "elite" (whoever they may be) but that being permitted to drive is not something granted automatically.

That is the sense in which the word is used in this context. It has nothing to do with wealth, status, "elitism", pretensions to superiority or snobbery. If you drive, you are privileged, whether you are driving a Rolls or a battered old banger.

The other thing that interests me is the "culture" of Scuttlebutt - the recurrent themes and battles - red v. blue; "raggies" v. "mobos"; AWBs v. MABS; wavers v. non wavers; English v. Scots; aren't the English awful; aren't the French awful etc. I don't see anything like this on any other sailing forums that I look at from time to time. And, as I have remarked before, it seems to be quite irrelevant with the real world in which I live and have sailed for more than 50 years. So I sometimes wonder whether there really are people out there, secretly harbouring these strange attitudes, or whether the whole thing is actually generated by the dynamics of Scuttlebutt itself.

Mind you, I have done very little sailing on the south coast. Perhaps they do things differently there?

 

[Poignard]

Throwing away traditions simply in the name of pseudo-egalitarian blandness seems like an act of wanton vandalism to me.

Seems more like socialism to me! Harrumph!

Fellow will have us all wearing boiler suits and waving little red books before you know it.

Get Mellors to see him off the premises at once.

 

[Flying Penguin]

Seems more like socialism to me! Harrumph!

Thread lock in 5....4....3....

 

[prv]

I have noticed being near pendennis shipyard where super yachts are built and refurbished that all British registered yachts carry the Red Ensign.

Sure it's not a Cook Islands one, for tax purposes?

(It's a red ensign with a badge added.)

Pete

 

[Flashy]

I know *that*, but I was suggesting that with a couple of noticeable exceptions (1803-15, 1914-18, 1939-45) much of the "power projection" of the RN was to enable the MN to do it's stuff.

I get you now. Yes, fair point.

 

[Flashy]

But then again I like to fly this one, just to annoy the cornish.

Is that because they don't like visitors from Devon?

 

[Bru]

I've heard it said that the RN eventually chose white as the single ensign because Nelson was Admiral of the White Squadron at Trafalgar, but I can't find anything to back that up. Another nice story.

Prior to Trafalgar, ships of the RN would fly the ensigns and battle colours to match which fleet their admiral belonged to e.g. red for an Admiral of the Red, blue for an Admiral of the Blue, white for an Admiral of the White

At Trafalgar, to avoid confusion with enemy flags, Nelson ordered all ships to wear the ensigns and colours of an Admiral of the White which coincidentally happened to be his own colours

After Trafalgar, in honour of Nelson and to commemorate the victory over the French, the Royal Navy adopted the ensign and colours of the White permanently for all vessels in commission

Or so I have read I hasten to point out, I wasn't actually there at the time!

 

[pendlecats]

I usually fly a big red one off the mizzen peak. But then again I like to fly this one, just to annoy the Cornish.

Is that because they don't like visitors from Devon?

He'd be better off asking for a Devon Pasty.

 

[Resolution]

I have noticed being near pendennis shipyard where super yachts are built and refurbished that all British registered yachts carry the Red Ensign. I have honestly have to say not one Blue. The rich and pivilged seem to fly the red with pride yet could easily fly a blue.
Have these billionaire actually realised that Red is the colour?


bob

It may be because the warrant to fly a blue requires the person named in the warrant (usually the owner) to be on board. Remember some discussion last year about Gosling's Leander at Gunwharf Quays in Porstmouth, when the blue ensign was worn only while Gosling was on board. They reverted to the regular red when he departed.

My guess is that most superyacht refits will involve trials in which the professional skipper will be on board, but not the owner.

 

[robertj]

It may be because the warrant to fly a blue requires the person named in the warrant (usually the owner) to be on board. Remember some discussion last year about Gosling's Leander at Gunwharf Quays in Porstmouth, when the blue ensign was worn only while Gosling was on board. They reverted to the regular red when he departed.

My guess is that most superyacht refits will involve trials in which the professional skipper will be on board, but not the owner.

Yes you could be right.

Bob

 

[bigwow]

I'd better stop my Granddaughter flying windsocks from Bigwow, looks like it could get me into trouble!

 

[Searush]

I'd better stop my Granddaughter flying windsocks from Bigwow, looks like it could get me into trouble!

Why? There is no requirement to wear any Ensign in UK waters & there is no statute banning any other flags or decorations. But you know that, you're just trolling aren't you?

For all the objectors, all that's asked is that if you do choose to wear an ensign, (whichever you wish) simply do it with due respect. What's hard or objectionable about that?

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

Why? There is no requirement to wear any Ensign in UK waters & there is no statute banning any other flags or decorations. But you know that, you're just trolling aren't you?

For all the objectors, all that's asked is that if you do choose to wear an ensign, (whichever you wish) simply do it with due respect. What's hard or objectionable about that?

I really didnt want to get back into this, but have to comment here.

If someone does not care about flags, but wants to have one, perhaps because their kids like the colour, or it was a present or whatever, why should they have to be conscious of others attitudes i.e. "with due respect".

Surely if we all just live and let live, and stop being bothered by symbolism the world would be a safer and happier place.

 

[Poignard]

It may be because the warrant to fly a blue requires the person named in the warrant (usually the owner) to be on board.

I hope they don't enforce that rule too literally, otherwise I could be in trouble everytime I wandered off to the marina 'facilities' for a s+s+s, or worse still, spent a couple of hours ashore having a meal or a walk.

I suppose common sense would dictate that the blue ensign must only be flown/worn (?) when the warrant holder is in command of the boat and he is not far away.

Still if common sense came into it, we wouldn't be displaying pieces of coloured cloth or doing anything else to make us in any way different to the rest of the herd.

 

[timbartlett]

Why? There is no requirement to wear any Ensign in UK waters & there is no statute banning any other flags or decorations. But you know that, you're just trolling aren't you?

For all the objectors, all that's asked is that if you do choose to wear an ensign, (whichever you wish) simply do it with due respect. What's hard or objectionable about that?

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1995/21/section/4
4 Penalty for carrying improper colours.
(1)If any of the following colours, namely—
(a)any distinctive national colours except—
(i)the red ensign,
(ii)the Union flag (commonly known as the Union Jack) with a white border, or
(iii)any colours authorised or confirmed under section 2(3)(b); or
(b)any colours usually worn by Her Majesty’s ships or resembling those of Her Majesty, or
(c)the pendant usually carried by Her Majesty’s ships or any pendant resembling that pendant,
are hoisted on board any British ship without warrant from Her Majesty or from the Secretary of State, the master of the ship, or the owner of the ship (if on board), and every other person hoisting them shall be guilty of an offence.

My reading of that is that "national colours" such as Scottish, Welsh, and Northern Irish flags are illegal. So is the EU "ensign" with a union flag in the corner (because it is a blue ensign "defaced" with a circle of stars). I should think one might argue that the St Piran ensign is OK because it isn't a national ensign.

 

[awol]

I suppose common sense would dictate that the blue ensign must only be flown/worn (?) when the warrant holder is in command of the boat and he is not far away.

He doesn't have to be in command, just on board. Should be lowered when the w/h steps off and always at sunset or 21.00 whichever comes first, taking your cue from the most senior vessel present.

..... and don't forget to dip it to all and every RN ship as a sign of respect.