Ensigns/flags

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robertj

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Posts always seems to go into the discussions of White/blue/red ensigns and their attributed snobbery.
I can honestly say I am not up on the technicalities of being able to somehow scam ones way into flying say the Blue or White ones.
What I would like to know is, how many variation do the French and other nations fly, and are these steeped in this snobbery, jealousy and one upmanship?

Bob
 
I do know that in Denmark and Norway, they do not change the colour, but they do have a system of swallow tails and defaced crowns on them to denote what I presume are royal yacht clubs, so we are not alone in tinkering with our ensigns.
 
richardsn9 said:
I do know that in Denmark and Norway, they do not change the colour, but they do have a system of swallow tails and defaced crowns on them to denote what I presume are royal yacht clubs, so we are not alone in tinkering with our ensigns.
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thanks Richard as I have wondered if it was just us Brits.
 
In Finland every yacht club (however humble, as long as they're registered) has its own ensign: they differ only in having the club's badge in the canton (top left corner).
 
The Red Duster was good enough for the convoys of WWII, it therefor is an honour for us humble folk to be able to fly it. Who needs white or blue ones?
 
robertj said:
Posts always seems to go into the discussions of White/blue/red ensigns and their attributed snobbery.
I can honestly say I am not up on the technicalities of being able to somehow scam ones way into flying say the Blue or White ones.
What I would like to know is, how many variation do the French and other nations fly, and are these steeped in this snobbery, jealousy and one upmanship?

Bob
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Lots of countries have some sort or other of 'yacht ensign' - mosty, but not exclusively, monarchies.

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Penton Hooker said:
The Red Duster was good enough for the convoys of WWII, it therefor is an honour for us humble folk to be able to fly it. Who needs white or blue ones?
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It is neither a "scam" nor snobbery to wear/fly a white, blue, or defaced ensign (though some choose to see it that way, and it is a potentially expensive criminal offence to be caught wearing/flying the wrong one). Nor is it an "honour" or a "privilege to be able to fly/wear a red.

It is a legal requirement for vessels to display their national maritime flag, from which British yachts in British waters are exempt. So if you want to claim some kind of "privilege", the best way to do it is by not wearing/flying anensign at all!
 
timbartlett said:
It is neither a "scam" nor snobbery to wear/fly a white, blue, or defaced ensign (though some choose to see it that way, and it is a potentially expensive criminal offence to be caught wearing/flying the wrong one). Nor is it an "honour" or a "privilege to be able to fly/wear a red.

It is a legal requirement for vessels to display their national maritime flag, from which British yachts in British waters are exempt. So if you want to claim some kind of "privilege", the best way to do it is by not wearing/flying anensign at all!
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It am be legal, I may be a requirement, and it may be criminal to fly the wrong one, but it's still a load of boll***s to me. It's a bit of cloth on a stick FFS.

I am often astounded by the passion such inanimate can things generate and this one is near the top of the list.

P.S. no need to explain why, there are a good 200 other threads that can enlighten me.

Being a tolerant sort of chap I can quite accept that some really like this sort of stuff, but to be able to put someone in jail for having the wrong bit of cloth on his stick is absurd to say the least.

P.p.s having said that, is this surprising when two countries are actually arguing over ownership of a sausage name!!!!!! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17706290
 
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So there may be laws in the UK over the colour of an Ensign but is there anything that covers what colour ensign you fly in foreign lands provided it denote your ships place of registry?
 
Ex-SolentBoy said:
It am be legal, I may be a requirement, and it may be criminal to fly the wrong one, but it's still a load of boll***s to me. It's a bit of cloth on a stick FFS.

I am often astounded by the passion such inanimate can things generate and this one is near the top of the list.

P.S. no need to explain why, there are a good 200 other threads that can enlighten me.

Being a tolerant sort of chap I can quite accept that some really like this sort of stuff, but to be able to put someone in jail for having the wrong bit of cloth on his stick is absurd to say the least.
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+1 - A VERY BIG one!
 
Nostrodamus said:
So there may be laws in the UK over the colour of an Ensign but is there anything that covers what colour ensign you fly in foreign lands provided it denote your ships place of registry?
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The alternatives are acceptable provided they are "worn" correctly - that is in accordance with the permit. There is, though, a somewhat enigmatic statement on the permit that "should take care to avoid any action which might result in complications with a Foreign Power" (Condition 14). Make of that what you will as I have never seen any elaboration on what such an action might be!
 
Penton Hooker said:
The Red Duster was good enough for the convoys of WWII, it therefor is an honour for us humble folk to be able to fly it. Who needs white or blue ones?
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Perhaps a little history might help.

The authority to grant members the "privilege" of wearing a blue or white ensign was granted to a number of long established yacht clubs in recognition of the fact that their members made a hugely important contribution to the manning of the coastal forces in both world wars. Very large numbers of these yachtsmen lost their lives as a result of their service in both conflicts. Coastal Forces was a dangerous service.

Service yacht clubs such as RNSA and RAFSA have their own ensigns in recognition of their service connections.

Some other organisations, of which the Little Ship Club and the Cruising Association are examples, have the authority to grant warrents in recognition of their services to small craft seamanship.

If we can wear the red duster with pride in the achievements of those who sailed under it (which are, after all, not our personal achievements) why not the blue, the white or the RAF's light blue, with the same roundel on the fly, I presume, as the one that was painted on the wings of spitfires?

The "snobbery" associated with these ensigns is, in fact, an artificial, inverted snobbery that betrays a great deal more about the person who makes the accusation than about the accused.

This is another of those topics that makes me wonder why on earth it matters so much to people - especially when I see people going out of their way to mention the colour of an ensign when sneering at someone else's perceived misdeeds.

Sometimes it seems to me that there are parallel universes here. The one created on this forum and the the one in which I live and sail. Happily, there is more convergence between the two on the PBO and East Coast forums. :)
 
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Nostrodamus said:
So there may be laws in the UK over the colour of an Ensign but is there anything that covers what colour ensign you fly in foreign lands provided it denote your ships place of registry?
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I really do not understand the passion that it arouses, (for or against!). But I do feel pretty passionately about not handing over large sums of money to governments.

A british yacht (whether registered or by virtue of her ownership) is subject to the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1995/21/contents, even when she's abroad. (That is what being "a British ship" means!). For most, the MSA95 requires us to fly our national flag when entering or leaving a foreign port. Failing to do so is an offence under UK Law as well as under most foreign countries' laws, so you could get done for it twice.
For most of us, not flying it in British waters is not an offence.
But:
- Up to £50k for flying foreign colours if tried in a magistrates court
- £unlimited and/or up to two years inside for flying foreign colours if it goes to crown court.
- £5k for flying the wrong British flag if tried in a magistrates court
- £unlimited for flying the wrong flag if it goes to crown court.

And you can be caught by any commissioned naval or military officer, a customs officer, or a British consular officer. It doesn't happen very often... but it's still law -- and relatively recent law, at that.
 
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timbartlett said:
And you can be caught by any commissioned naval or military officer, a customs officer, or a British consular officer. It doesn't happen very often... but it's still law -- and relatively recent law, at that.
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Do you actually know of any cases where this law has been used?
 
Litotes. An excellent post, I couldn't have put it better myself.

I've always found it rather peculiar (as someone who predominantly reads these here forums, and contributes rarely), that it always seems to be those who claim to have no interest in affairs of ceremony, or flag-waving, who seem to get most pent up over this whole issue.
 
Yachtie 1, "I look down on him because I have a white ensign."

Yachtie 2, "I look up to him because he has a white ensign," (looking down) "but I look down to him because he has a red ensign." (looking straight) "I have a blue ensign."

Yachtie 3, "I know my place."

Yachtie 1, (looking down) "I get a feeling of superiority over them."

Yachtie 2, (looking up) "I get a feeling of inferiority from him but a (looking down) feeling of superiority over him."

Yachtie 3, (looking up) "I get a pain in the back of my neck."


Many apologies to Cleese, Barker and Corbett :)
 
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