Ensign protocol: The question - Red or Blue?

[nortada]

This may be a troll, but I'm interested to know why you might think this question applies to yachts and not mobos?

Love it!

Page 7 already - this will run & run.

Pity it has been launched during the summer season rather than those dark cold days of winter when those interested could really get stuck in.

Bring it on!

 

[nortada]

Is the UK the only country that has 3 different national marine flags

Can cause confusion in foreign parts & have heard of occasions when both the blue & the white were not recognised as legal.

I had the privilege to be in the audience when a member of the RYS was directed to remove that white one & fly 'the legal UK ensign

Wisely he complied but boy was he miffed.

The lesser mortals loved it

 

[BrianH]

Is the UK the only country that has 3 different national marine flags
Can cause confusion in foreign parts & have heard of occasions when both the blue & the white were not recognised as legal.

As a permanent expatriate with a red ensign I think it is the most frequent question I get from foreign sailors wherever I sail - what are all these UK ensigns, what do they mean and why is there not a single standard one like everyone else? I have to admit I am rubbish at making any sort of clear answer because they all seem to go away with a bemused expression and shaking their heads.

 

[Rivers & creeks]

As a permanent expatriate with a red ensign I think it is the most frequent question I get from foreign sailors wherever I sail - what are all these UK ensigns, what do they mean and why is there not a single standard one like everyone else? I have to admit I am rubbish at making any sort of clear answer because they all seem to go away with a bemused expression and shaking their heads.

Because we're comfortable with ambiguity and also a bit silly. It's charming to some but lovers of fixed and unified rules will hate it.

 

[Neil]

I know nothing about ensigns, blue, red or indifferent - when you should or should not use them, and I don't have one. However, this recurrent theme occasioned me to look up my own club's regs:

One of these was the Marquis Conyngham, who used his influence with Queen Victoria to have the privileges of a Royal Yacht Club conferred in 1845. The Club flag was to be "the Red Ensign with a crown in the centre of the Jack" and the Burgee was red with a white cross with a crown at the centre.

Is this adornment to the red ensign fully kosher? What does it all mean? It seems like a bit of the John Cleese and two Ronnie's sketches: "I look up to him because he flies the blue, but I look down on him because he flies the plain red". (The Red) "I know my place"

 

[Woodlouse]

As a permanent expatriate with a red ensign I think it is the most frequent question I get from foreign sailors wherever I sail - what are all these UK ensigns, what do they mean and why is there not a single standard one like everyone else? I have to admit I am rubbish at making any sort of clear answer because they all seem to go away with a bemused expression and shaking their heads.

The reason we have so many ensigns is because of a rich, varied and glorious maritime history. Most other nations don't have that heritage and so the fail, or refuse to understand.

 

[wadget]

Is the UK the only country that has 3 different national marine flags

There are many countries which have different ensigns, especially for naval vessels. The difference is that it is less common for yachts from these countries to be able to fly anything other than their merchant or civil ensign.

 

[superheat6k]

In 1805 the Royal Navy won the Battle of Trafalgar to defeat an obnoxious dictatorship whose sole intention was World domination. Since that Battle the World's widest spoken language became English from the effect the decision of the Royal Navy to provide free and safe passage for all those using the seas for peaceful purposes.

As an aside to this provision of Dominion over the Seas from hard won battles for the freedom we all still enjoy, we also established the right to establishing certain traditions. Johnny Foreigner may not like it, nor wish to understand it, but that is our right from our former status as the mighty England and since the early 20th Century 'Great Britain'.

I fly a 'Blue' and served my time 'on the wall' to gain this right, for which my membership of RNSA remains my sole link with my former career and it is with immense pride each time I hoist 'The Queen' in my own private 'Colours' ceremony as OB enters commission for a weekends voyaging.

I equally appreciate the right of every Citizen of this Country to fly the 'Red', and appreciate the efforts of our Merchantmen and Fishing fleets throughout a multitude of wars under the 'Red'.

I am less sure I hold the same respect for Clubs flying the 'Blue' or 'White' simply out of patronage. I certainly would never ever dip my 'Blue' to an RYS member flying a 'White'.

 

[Seatrout]

They all look the same to me.... colour blindness is a great thing! I think mine is yellow?

 

[mcframe]

I believe it is still technically legal to fly historical ensigns as the right to their use has not been repealed in law, e.g. pre 1707 English and Scottish ensigns.

MSA 95 says several things about ensigns:
1. What we are entitled to wear.
2. What Johnny Foreigner or the master of a British Ship is not allowed to do.
3. When true colours must be shown.

I think there is a fair bit of leeway in the interpretation of that - for instance, there is no rule or statute regarding the size ratio of ensign to house flag ;-)

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Is the UK the only country that has 3 different national marine flags

No. I've seen all three colours on Irish boats. Whats more they still have Royal yacht clubs in a republic.

And you would get arguments north of the border about whether there are three or four anyway. Who cares - the Dragon is much the prettiest anyway

 

[chinita]

Although I have a warrant to wear a blue ensign I never do. I like a bright red ensign and am proud to wear it. What irks me is the number of people who wear faded pinkish ensigns that are tattered and torn as some sort of ancient trophy.

If you're going to wear colours - do so and look smart. Wear a bright red (or blue), non faded, non tatty ensign. Or don't bother. Please don't try to pass off a tatty ensign as anything other than laziness and disrespect.

'Nothing betrays the Landsman more than shabby colours'

RT McMullen

 

[chinita]

Only the dutch fly bright ensigns-- nearly as big as their boat

Ah, but the reason the Dutch have big ensigns with horizontal stripes is so they can shorten them centimetre by centimetre as they fray!

Same as they have a hole drilled in their fridge door so they can check that the light goes out when they close it.

 

[Brightwork]

Is the UK the only country that has 3 different national marine flags

Can cause confusion in foreign parts & have heard of occasions when both the blue & the white were not recognised as legal.

I had the privilege to be in the audience when a member of the RYS was directed to remove that white one & fly 'the legal UK ensign

Wisely he complied but boy was he miffed.

The lesser mortals loved it

It would be interesting to see the RN 'directed' to take down their 'not recognised as legal' white ensign!

Is the national flag of Australia 'not legal' because it is a defaced blue? Ditto New Zealand and around 50% of all Commonwealth countries?

It's the bit in the top left corner that makes it 'Legal' - that's because it is issued under Royal (or Government) warrant.

Defaced blue ensign [edit]

Since 1864, the Blue Ensign is defaced with a badge or emblem, to form the ensign of United Kingdom government departments or public bodies, for example:-
Royal Fleet Auxiliary
Royal Maritime Auxiliary Service
Royal Naval Auxiliary Service
Port of London Authority
Royal Air Force Yacht Club
Royal Engineers
Sea Cadet Corps (United Kingdom)
Combined Cadet Force
Northern Lighthouse Board
Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency
Outer Hebrides

Ensign of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary



Government Service Ensign



Ensign of the defunct Royal Maritime Auxiliary Service



Ensign of the defunct Royal Navy Auxiliary Service



Ensign of the Northern Lighthouse Board



Ensign of the Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency



Ensign used by maritime departments of the Government of Bermuda.



Royal Engineers Ensign



Ensign used on Royal Logistic Corps vessels commanded by a Commissioned Officer.



Ensign used on Royal Logistic Corps vessels commanded by a Non-Commissioned Officer.



HM Customs & Excise. Superseded by the UK Border Agency on 1 April 2008.



UK Border Agency



Ensign of the Sea Cadet Corps



Ensign of Her Majesty's Coastguard

 

[chinita]

Is the national flag of Australia 'not legal' because it is a defaced blue? Ditto New Zealand

To add to the confusion, the Australian and New Zealand maritime ensigns are red defaced!

A Kiwi yachtsman I know told me that the 'red' was a privileged ensign; the blue defaced, as in the national flag, being the norm.

 

[jrc1983]

To add to the confusion, the Australian and New Zealand maritime ensigns are red defaced!

A Kiwi yachtsman I know told me that the 'red' was a privileged ensign; the blue defaced, as in the national flag, being the norm.

Technically the blue Aussie/Kiwi flag should ONLY be flown by their respective navies (as a Jack, not an ensign) and on state buildings and the like, not by Joe Public and certainly not on any kind of vessel. Red is the civil ensign and is that which should be flown by craft afloat and by the public. For example in early colour photos of public events in Aus/NZ, e.g. Royal tours, you'll see the general public waving little red ensigns and buildings decorated with the same,

 

[john_morris_uk]

It would be interesting to see the RN 'directed' to take down their 'not recognised as legal' white ensign!

Is the national flag of Australia 'not legal' because it is a defaced blue? Ditto New Zealand and around 50% of all Commonwealth countries?

It's the bit in the top left corner that makes it 'Legal' - that's because it is issued under Royal (or Government) warrant.

Defaced blue ensign [edit]

Since 1864, the Blue Ensign is defaced with a badge or emblem, to form the ensign of United Kingdom government departments or public bodies, for example:-

Royal Air Force Yacht Club

Tell me about when the RAF was founded again?

Only joking....

 

[jrc1983]

Tell me about when the RAF was founded again?

Only joking....

Founded on the 1st April, which tells you everything you need to know about the RAF!

 

[nortada]

RAF Yacht Club

Founded on the 1st April, which tells you everything you need to know about the RAF!

And, despite their ensign, the RAF Yacht Club is nothing to do with the RAF who have the RAF Sailing Association, with a rather grand golden eagle on their flag - well they would, wouldn't they!

All very confusing but no doubt someone will shed some light?

Told you it was going to be fun.

 

[Highland Bear]

And, despite their ensign, the RAF Yacht Club is nothing to do with the RAF who have the RAF Sailing Association, with a rather grand golden eagle on their flag - well they would, wouldn't they!

All very confusing but no doubt someone will shed some light?

Told you it was going to be fun.

The RAFYC was established by RAF Officers at Calshot and moved to Hamble after WW2. I'm ex-RAF, as are quite a few of the membership, but the Club is now open to all. To say we have nothing to do with the RAF is not entirely true.

I sailed for the first time ever in 1972, in "Contrail" a yacht of the RAFSA, from the RAFYC pontoons at Hamble.

Like most things "services" RAFSA is a smaller organisation these days, sadly.