Ensign etiquette

Shambles said:
I have noticed an increasing ignorance of basic procedures lately.

Recently a MC was alongside in Weymouth (No name no packdrill). She was flying two blue ensigns - one from an ensign staff aft and one from his gantry. In addition there was a red ensign flying from the pulpit (jack staff) ......... if his knowledge on this matter is so lacking, whats he like on other aspects; boat handling, safety, tides, weather etc?
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Agree with you and Jonjo.
By their nutty behaviour (the Bard said) do nutters reveal themselves.
Nice to be able to see them coming - and go the other way.
 
Searush said:
Your club may have a warrant, but have they issued you with a permit & does your boat comply with the relevant requirements? Or is it just kept in a locker?
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yes we have a permit and we comply and it flies when we go out on the boat.
 
MacMan said:
LOL

Now I KNOW why it is a good idea to steer clear of Blue Ensign craft. ;-) They do seem to hit more things on average than Red Ensign boat. Or is that just me ?

(Ducks for cover)

But then again I suppose this vessel was flying both so doesn't count. (but 66% a Blue Ensign boat though!)
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I have a permit to to fly an undefaced Blue Ensign on our boat. A very good sailing friend of mine is also eligible, and in a recent discussion we both agreed that we would probably stop flying the blue because it seems to bring down a pile of bigotted views about us and our boat handling/seamanship/birth/parentage, regardless of what we actually do on the water.

No idea why this is - but having been proud to wear the blue for many years, it looks as though from now on I will carry on flying a burgee that those in the know will recognise, and a red ensign in the hope that people will be more friendly...
 
john_morris_uk said:
I have a permit to to fly an undefaced Blue Ensign on our boat. A very good sailing friend of mine is also eligible, and in a recent discussion we both agreed that we would probably stop flying the blue because it seems to bring down a pile of bigotted views about us and our boat handling/seamanship/birth/parentage, regardless of what we actually do on the water.
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What a pity. This seems like a capitulation to some of the silliest people on the water. It almost makes me want to apply for a permit from the Cruising Association, of which I am a member.

The clubs that grant permits (other than the naval ones) were generally granted that privilege in recognition of one of two things. In most cases, these were the clubs from which came the thousands of yachtsmen who manned and were the backbone of the coastal forces that did so much to save our bacon in two world wars. In some others (such as the CA and the Little Ship Club) what was being recognised was their exceptional services to amateur seamanship generally.

People who talk about the "proud history" of the red are usually ignorant of these facts, but they are just as worthy of recognition and remembrance.

I hope you decide not to give in to the the ignorance, pettiness and inverted snobbery that is so evident on this board. I don't think it is nearly so prevalent in the real world and I, for one, wouldn't give a toss for the opinions of people who take these silly attitudes.
 
downthecreek said:
What a pity. This seems like a capitulation to some of the silliest people on the water. It almost makes me want to apply for a permit from the Cruising Association, of which I am a member.

The clubs that grant permits (other than the naval ones) were generally granted that privilege in recognition of one of two things. In most cases, these were the clubs from which came the thousands of yachtsmen who manned and were the backbone of the coastal forces that did so much to save our bacon in two world wars. In some others (such as the CA and the Little Ship Club) what was being recognised was their exceptional services to amateur seamanship generally.

People who talk about the "proud history" of the red are usually ignorant of these facts, but they are just as worthy of recognition and remembrance.

I hope you decide not to give in to the the ignorance, pettiness and inverted snobbery that is so evident on this board. I don't think it is nearly so prevalent in the real world and I, for one, wouldn't give a toss for the opinions of people who take these silly attitudes.
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You are entitled to your view but sadly you show no respect for anybody else who disagrees with your own view. I quote 'ouldn't give a toss for the opinions of people who take these silly attitudes.'

It is your choice that other people have silly attitudes. But this attitude only reinforces the view of others who happen to disagree.

My own personal view is that Blue Ensign's are outdated , serve no purpose but to draw sailor's apart. I would say to you give it up, like so many are doing now.

Have confidence in yourself and your ability.
 
LONG_KEELER said:
You are entitled to your view but sadly you show no respect for anybody else who disagrees with your own view. I quote 'ouldn't give a toss for the opinions of people who take these silly attitudes.'
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You are right there! I have no respect whatsoever for your opinion on this matter. It seems my lack of respect is heartily reciprocated. :)

My own personal view is that Blue Ensign's are outdated , serve no purpose but to draw sailor's apart.
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Only if certain silly sailors choose to be "drawn apart".

Have confidence in yourself and your ability.
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What an extraordinary non sequitur!
 
considering the reason for taking it in at night , it may be time with durable modern materials to leave it up, then we could find something else to whinge about,-d-tunbridge wells
 
john_morris_uk said:
I have a permit to to fly an undefaced Blue Ensign on our boat. A very good sailing friend of mine is also eligible, and in a recent discussion we both agreed that we would probably stop flying the blue because it seems to bring down a pile of bigotted views about us and our boat handling/seamanship/birth/parentage, regardless of what we actually do on the water.

No idea why this is - but having been proud to wear the blue for many years, it looks as though from now on I will carry on flying a burgee that those in the know will recognise, and a red ensign in the hope that people will be more friendly...
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Interesting response.

But why would you have been proud to fly the Blue Ensign for many years and obviously not proud to fly the Red ?
 
No ensign is required in home waters, so why wear one at all? Mine only sees the light of day when I am in foreign waters in any case. Maybe that is the solution, although I fear the people who get twists in their knickers about other people's choices might transfer their hostility to the burgees of certain clubs and associations, or some other trivial sign of "distinction" between sailors.

Personally, I think anyone who has a boat newer and bigger than my modest 35 year old 32 footer is a snobbish swine who just wants to show off because they are richer than me. I shall start opening an eagle eye for each and every social and nautical faux pas committed by these tiresome social climbers and report them, gleefully, on this board. :)
 
I find it quite sad and a reflection on todays society that very few seem to respect our past traditions and the foundations on which these traditions were built. I am not talking specifically on the Ensign etiquette issue.
It seems that most of us these days think it right that we should choose which rules we wish to follow, forgetting that these rules/ guidelines were designed to provide a "uniformity" of behaviours on the water, which ultimately enhanced safe passage.
Alas, I am probably as guilty as the next man, so I am not criticising any individuals in particular. It would not be the first time I have lost the wind and switched on the motor without first hoisting a cone.
I just think that if we continue to "dilute" these traditions and regulations, then, considering the amount of boat users we now have in this country, we are going to see a lot more behaviour lthat will just irritate at best or result in injury or death.
 
Irrespective of the merits/demerits of which British ensign to wear, one thing seems inescapable to me, the red ensign stands out clearly at sea and looks great.

Evidence below of Parsifal III that passed us and that I photographed off the Adriatic island of Brac in 2005 - now on the market for a cool 60 million euros.

Parsifal.jpg
 
puddock said:
I find it quite sad and a reflection on todays society that very few seem to respect our past traditions and the foundations on which these traditions were built. I am not talking specifically on the Ensign etiquette issue.
It seems that most of us these days think it right that we should choose which rules we wish to follow, forgetting that these rules/ guidelines were designed to provide a "uniformity" of behaviours on the water, which ultimately enhanced safe passage.
Alas, I am probably as guilty as the next man, so I am not criticising any individuals in particular. It would not be the first time I have lost the wind and switched on the motor without first hoisting a cone.
I just think that if we continue to "dilute" these traditions and regulations, then, considering the amount of boat users we now have in this country, we are going to see a lot more behaviour lthat will just irritate at best or result in injury or death.
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Well said.
 
pessimist said:
What on earth has ensign etiquette to do with boat handling etc.?
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I thought he explained that quite clearly in his post. Given his answer, it's not an unfair presumption. If one does presume, that is.

I mean, you have to question the intelligence of somebody that goes in to a chandlers and sees a blue flag and a red flag, and comes to the conclusion that it must be so you get a choice to better match your boat.

On the flip side. I'm not ever so militant about ensigns. Mine will be up until I stop for the winter. I can't be bothered to take it down at night.

Flag etiquette is something of a black art. Just when you think you understand it, you get told of some flag master that you're wrong. I mentioned trying to find a Scottish courtesy flag on my blog, and got told that it wasn't proper to fly one. Apparently all the boats currently on the pontoon here in Eyemouth don't know that though.
 
Reading this and many previous threads on red v blue, the resentment of blue by red seems to derive from one basic assumption - 'He is flying a blue ensign because he thinks he is superior to me and I resent that'.

In reality that is rarely true.

I could, if I wished, join a club and get an ensign warrant but I don't want to. Why should I be upset when others make the opposite choice?
 
puddock said:
It seems that most of us these days think it right that we should choose which rules we wish to follow, forgetting that these rules/ guidelines were designed to provide a "uniformity" of behaviours on the water, which ultimately enhanced safe passage.

I just think that if we continue to "dilute" these traditions and regulations, then, considering the amount of boat users we now have in this country, we are going to see a lot more behaviour lthat will just irritate at best or result in injury or death.
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I agree. Ensigns apart (and I never fail to be astonished by the significance people insist on attributing to this issue) most of the conventions and traditions of the sea are there not to impose stuffy restrictions on people for no good reason. They are codified versions of wisdom that has grown up over hundreds of years of seafaring and that has served seafarers well enough to become a common language and culture of the sea. This is something in which to find real value.

Boats and technology change, but the sea does not. It still demands a certain discipline, a set of good habits of mind and an appreciation of the need to make our behaviour predictable for others - for our own security and for theirs. Of course, the common culture can and does change as boats and technology change, but much of it remains as unchanging as the sea. As long as people fail to understand the meaning of the common culture and the utility of its conventions, the babies will continue to go down the plug with the bathwater.
 
downthecreek said:
No ensign is required in home waters, so why wear one at all? :)
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Yes, the only reason I fly mine (in a busy area with lots going on) is to help show that I am not racing.

As for the Blue Ensign, I always thought this showed the skipper was ex RN. It is a shame this is not the case, that would be an end to the matter.
 
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LONG_KEELER said:
My own personal view is that Blue Ensign's are outdated , serve no purpose but to draw sailor's apart. I would say to you give it up, like so many are doing now.
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In that case, my personal view is...

I am a member of the Little Ship Club, and I would have the greatest of pride to fly our defaced blue ensign. It is not a case of feeling superior to those flying red, after all, if you get the feeling of superiority from a flag's colour then you're a bit of a plonker, In my opinion.

It is a marque of respect to the people before you whom did something worthy of being given permission to issue it. Surely there is a place for pride in our hobby/sport/life?

Oh, as it happens, I can't fly the blue ensign because my boat is apparently too small. Now basing rules upon boat size is a rules that should be abolished. Can't do the arc in anything less than 30 feet? You might as well go across in a bloody cruise liner!
 
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