Engine well in a Centaur - possible?

[Bru]

I';ve got this really good idea ...

Why not buy a Westerly Centaur with a knackered engine for four grand, chop a hole in the bottom of it and stick a two grand outboard in the hole

Then I'll end up with a Westerly Centaur worth seventh eighths of bugger all!

Well would YOU buy it afterwards???

 

[Fantasie 19]

I';ve got this really good idea ...

Why not buy a Westerly Centaur with a knackered engine for four grand, chop a hole in the bottom of it and stick a two grand outboard in the hole

Then I'll end up with a Westerly Centaur worth seventh eighths of bugger all!

Well would YOU buy it afterwards???

Yes..... because if you ever needed to re-engine it it would cost a fraction of an inboard, and if the engine wasn't a stupid size you can take it home to service.... I'm wasting my time 'ere aren't I....

 

[dylanwinter]

me too

Yes.....

I would buy it if it worked

and I see no reason why is would not work

the bloke who put the engine in the Pageant is as pleased as punch with his

D

 

[BruceDanforth]

Why not put the engine on a £100 bracket on the back instead of a huge faff butchering holes in the boat?

 

[Tranona]

Yes..... because if you ever needed to re-engine it it would cost a fraction of an inboard, and if the engine wasn't a stupid size you can take it home to service.... I'm wasting my time 'ere aren't I....

Therein lies the rub. It would have to be a "stupid" size to be a practical auxilliary for such a boat. There aare clearly advantages to an outboard, and on many boats they are superior. however, there comes a point related to size weight and expectations when they cease to be the right thing - and the Centaur is across that line. An outboard would be inferior to an inboard in all functional respects.

 

[dylanwinter]

Therein lies the rub. It would have to be a "stupid" size to be a practical auxilliary for such a boat. There aare clearly advantages to an outboard, and on many boats they are superior. however, there comes a point related to size weight and expectations when they cease to be the right thing - and the Centaur is across that line. An outboard would be inferior to an inboard in all functional respects.

so that is that then

I bow to your knowledge of such things

Dylan

I have noticed some pretty big outboard powered commercial fishing/lobster and dive boats - well up into the 30 foot size

 

[penfold]

It's possible, but I can think of simpler ways of rendering my boat unsaleable. Like Anchorman says; if you must have an outboard fit a bracket. It's easier, quicker and reversible which means saleability is relatively unaffected.

 

[Tranona]

so that is that then

I bow to your knowledge of such things

Dylan

I have noticed some pretty big outboard powered commercial fishing/lobster and dive boats - well up into the 30 foot size

They are mostly planing hulls - useful to get to fishing grounds and back quickly. Very rare to see an outboard on a displacement hull above, say 26'. The introduction of relatively low cost lightweight diesels was a major factor in making boats like the Centaur achievable and affordable.

Recognise your aversion based on your experience, but you need to recognise that your old engine was OLD and not a very good one at that. There is a sort of imbalance in boats where the basic structure of GRP seems to continue functioning long after the mechanicals (not just engines) have worn out. The opposite of cars where the mechanics outlast the structures. So, whereas a car would just be scrapped a boat could be re-engined. Trouble is, as exemplified by the other threads running on the low value of boats the overall value of old boats has now dropped to a level where new engines in old boats is no longer viable, but there is no mechanism for scrapping or recycling old boats.

Squeezing a bit more life out of them by fitting an outboard may be cheap, but very unsatisfactory when for (relatively) little more money you can get a functioning boat with plenty of life left in it.

This does not apply to boats like your current boat which was designed for an outboard, and would not benefit much functionally if an inboard was fitted. Most boats are designed with either an inboard or an outboard in mind, with a few on the boundaries where either would work. Sensible to choose a boat where the propulsion system is well matched to the design rather than hack the boat around and end up with a sub optimal solution.

 

[wooslehunter]

For any reasonable manouverability, the prop needs to be in front of the rudder. Since the Centaur rudder is hung in front of the stern locker you have restricted options. Bear in mind the Centaur is not the slipperyest shape around & tends to bonce in a short swell. Lots of thrust is required. So a bigger engine is better. 20hp should be OK as along as a fine pitch large diameter prop is used. Most outboards are intended for high speed. Bear in mind the charge capability of engines like this too. You may need to run at reasonable speed to get any acceptable rate.

It will not be ppractical to mount an outboard in front of the existing rudder position as it would take up most of the useable cockpit room.

So IMO options are:

1. Like the Pageant, mount where the locker is & move the rudder to the transom. Not sure how much this would change the ballance of the boat under sail but would increase weather helm. But of course you won't know until it's done unless you rig up something & test it. Problem is that once you transom hang the ruder, the tiller will then interfere with the main sheet track that will need moving. Not so simple perhaps.
2. Mount where the locker is & keep the rudder where it is. Allow enough room to steer the engine. It will take a significantly larer area in the hole above the water line to swing th eengine. Simpler but still a complex mod but would probably increase manouverability.
3. Transom mount. IMO, the easiest option. No need to hack around with the boat & handling under power may even be improved.
4. Buy one with a reasonable engine already fitted. By far the easiest option & there are plenty around.

 

[greggron]

I had a Leisure 22 which a previous owner had converted to outboard in a well (9.9hp Yamaha). You're right it was cheaper than an inboard donk and easier to take home to service but:
He had to add on a transom hung rudder which was always very heavy. Don't even think about it unless the outboard can be easily lifted out of the water each time after using - those tiny water intakes foul up with weed in no time at all if you don't. Although a long shaft, the screw was still not as deep as the inboard and of course right at the back of the boat. So in rough seas it still came out of the water. And in any conditions when you went forward eg to pick up a mooring, the leg came out of the water just enough for the water intakes to be taking in air causing overheating in the engine. So, you had to be bloomin quick (we never tried anchoring but that would have been worse). Finally, it did knock a considerable % off the selling price.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

so that is that then...

The answer is an A22. Voluminous luxurious interior and solves all your problems. You can pick one up on Ebay for about a grand. You don't want a Centaur really.

 

[Bru]

Yes..... because if you ever needed to re-engine it it would cost a fraction of an inboard, and if the engine wasn't a stupid size you can take it home to service.... I'm wasting my time 'ere aren't I....

Yep

I don't know whether Dangerous Dylan is serious or just poking the tiger with a stick to see what happens but I feel qualified to speak with some slight authority on this matter having just stepped up from a lightweight 23 footer with an outboard in a well to a boat very similar in all respects (but infinitely superior ) to a Centaur

To be serious, yes you could make a Centaur go with an outboard in a well but it would be an abomination. It would also drink petrol in comparison to a suitable inboard diesel

The Beta 20 in Erbas uses diesel at the same rate as the Suzuki 6hp outboard used petrol in Brigantia (approx. 1.2l per hour). A 9hp or 15hp outboard shoving 3 tonnes of Centaur around would drink petrol at a rate to make an Arab sheik, not to mention the tax man, very happy indeed

The 20h diesel has the power to drive Erbas through an F6/7 gusting F8 on the nose with consummate ease (as we proved on our first outing :eek). Actually, a 16 would probably be more than big enough but since a 20 will fit in the same space and doesn't cost much more it would have made sense to our predecessor to go for the extra grunt when he re-engine four years ago

The 6hp Suzuki in Brigantia struggled in anything upwards of F5 on the nose especially in any sort of chop. The 8hp 2 stroke it replaced was better in that situation but drank petrol like it really was going out of fashion

The inboard diesel, whilst far from silent, is a sociable creature to live with
The outboard in a well made normal conversation all but impossible and rendered the VHF inaudible
(if you're an anti-social solo sailor this might not matter)

An inboard is (rightly or wrongly) a positive selling point if you come to part with the boat
An outboard on a 3 tonne boat would put people off big style
(this might not be an issue if you never intend to sell but hey, best laid plans and all that)

Chopping a sizeable hole in the bottom of a boat isn't for the faint hearted. All sorts of potential structural issues. All can be overcome but it'd be a lot more complicated than spending 5 minutes with a jig saw and declaring the job done!

Nope, sorry it's a dreadful idea

On a boat the size of Brigantia (1.5t displacement, 23' long) an outboard has it's advantages for sure but also it's drawbacks. On balance, I reckon the outboard in a well is a good setup on that size of boat. Double the displacement however, and it's the displacement that really matters here, and an outboard is a lose, lose and lose again solution compared to a decent inboard diesel

Either buy a decent Centaur that's been re-engined for £6k to £8k or a cheap one for around £4k and put a new engine in it (but that's only worth it for a long term keeper)

 

[Fantasie 19]

Yep

I don't know whether Dangerous Dylan is serious or just poking the tiger with a stick to see what happens but I feel qualified to speak with some slight authority on this matter having just stepped up from a lightweight 23 footer with an outboard in a well to a boat very similar in all respects (but infinitely superior ) to a Centaur

To be serious, yes you could make a Centaur go with an outboard in a well but it would be an abomination. It would also drink petrol in comparison to a suitable inboard diesel

The Beta 20 in Erbas uses diesel at the same rate as the Suzuki 6hp outboard used petrol in Brigantia (approx. 1.2l per hour). A 9hp or 15hp outboard shoving 3 tonnes of Centaur around would drink petrol at a rate to make an Arab sheik, not to mention the tax man, very happy indeed

The 20h diesel has the power to drive Erbas through an F6/7 gusting F8 on the nose with consummate ease (as we proved on our first outing :eek). Actually, a 16 would probably be more than big enough but since a 20 will fit in the same space and doesn't cost much more it would have made sense to our predecessor to go for the extra grunt when he re-engine four years ago

The 6hp Suzuki in Brigantia struggled in anything upwards of F5 on the nose especially in any sort of chop. The 8hp 2 stroke it replaced was better in that situation but drank petrol like it really was going out of fashion

The inboard diesel, whilst far from silent, is a sociable creature to live with
The outboard in a well made normal conversation all but impossible and rendered the VHF inaudible
(if you're an anti-social solo sailor this might not matter)

An inboard is (rightly or wrongly) a positive selling point if you come to part with the boat
An outboard on a 3 tonne boat would put people off big style
(this might not be an issue if you never intend to sell but hey, best laid plans and all that)

Chopping a sizeable hole in the bottom of a boat isn't for the faint hearted. All sorts of potential structural issues. All can be overcome but it'd be a lot more complicated than spending 5 minutes with a jig saw and declaring the job done!

Nope, sorry it's a dreadful idea

On a boat the size of Brigantia (1.5t displacement, 23' long) an outboard has it's advantages for sure but also it's drawbacks. On balance, I reckon the outboard in a well is a good setup on that size of boat. Double the displacement however, and it's the displacement that really matters here, and an outboard is a lose, lose and lose again solution compared to a decent inboard diesel

Either buy a decent Centaur that's been re-engined for £6k to £8k or a cheap one for around £4k and put a new engine in it (but that's only worth it for a long term keeper)

Nicely put - I'm persuaded....

 

[ianat182]

My friends had a Seal22 with an outboard well and a 9.9hp outboard fitted, the noise and fumes were intolerable and handling controls and steering not helped by the location; the outboard was too heavy to remove after sailing each time and on a sometimes grounding mooring was vulnerable below the hull since the tilt could not be used. the end result was to fit a cantilever outboard bracket, and seal off the aperture,a much better arrangemen

ianat182

 

[dylanwinter]

the noise I have learned to live with

I usually use the tiller pilot and get away from the little blighter

the ability to vector is extremely valuable

the bilge keels will keep this well away from the ground

I am really never going to be trying to motor into a force 8

chopping holes in boats is not frightening - I have form so to speak

fuel consumption bother me not a bit

three gallons from the Humber to Edinburgh - I really do very little motoring unless I am up rivers

the fuel usage on KTL the boat is tiny compared to KTL the car


on the advantage side....

well you get a Centaur with full standing headroom, great seakeeping qualities, tough build, great back-up, British Classic, big deep cockpit

I would have a dead reliable and cheap to repair engine

Lobster pots and river weed will not be able to spoil my day and threaten my happiness

I can can carry a back up engine in the form of a long shaft Honda 2.3

It would be much more manoeverable in marinas and tight spaces

the downside is that unless you can prove that it works you have an unsellable Centaur - but then a Centaur with a knackered inboard is unsellable as wellanyway

so....

who wants to have go at the physics?

 

[Bru]

the noise I have learned to live with

It's much nicer learning to live without it though - trust me on this

I usually use the tiller pilot and get away from the little blighter

Likewise. Now though there's nothing I need to get away from

the ability to vector is extremely valuable

That, I grant you, I do miss

the bilge keels will keep this well away from the ground

True

I am really never going to be trying to motor into a force 8

No? Nor I. But I have on three occasions found myself caught out in an F6 plus gusting F7/8 in Brigantia (once off Lowestoft, once in the Whittaker Channel and once in Chi Harbour) and on all three occasions we've struggled to maintain steerage way and stay safe due to the lack of grunt available on an outboard in a heavy-ish boat.

chopping holes in boats is not frightening - I have form so to speak

The result of chopping a large hole in the bottom of a Centaur could be a lot more than just frightening though! There's enough trouble to be found already on a Centaur with flexing around the keel joints, I can't help thinking anything that reduces the stiffness of the hull cannot be a good idea

fuel consumption bother me not a bit

three gallons from the Humber to Edinburgh - I really do very little motoring unless I am up rivers

the fuel usage on KTL the boat is tiny compared to KTL the car

Would fuel consumption bother you if it doubled? Or trebled? And I bet it would be somewhere between the two. Could you carry enough petrol in reasonable safety on board a Centaur to give you a reasonable range under power for safety purposes at least? Indeed, where could one fit a large enough tank to be able to motor for several hours without having to refill at sea

I am playing devils advocate a little of course but if there's one thing I've learnt already in just a couple of weeks of owning Erbas it's that everything, and I do mean everything, is a whole order of magnitude different both on the positive side and the potential negative side

on the advantage side....

well you get a Centaur with full standing headroom, great seakeeping qualities, tough build, great back-up, British Classic, big deep cockpit

Bit of an ugly duckling, common as muck, a floating caravan, dated and rather plain interior ...

I would have a dead reliable and cheap to repair engine

I've got one of them too thanks. It's called a Beta 20 with 450 hours on the clock

(famous last words )

Lobster pots and river weed will not be able to spoil my day and threaten my happiness

Sorry to spoil your day but they'll still get caught on the keels, the skeg and / or jam up the rudder

I can can carry a back up engine in the form of a long shaft Honda 2.3

Well you can do that although you'll probably end up hanging it off the taff rail 'cos the lockers and cockpit will be full of petrol

It would be much more manoeverable in marinas and tight spaces

Potentially. a bit yes. How much would be interesting to see (provided somebody else was paying for the experiment!)

Mind you, provided the direction I want the stern to go in is to Port, I can use the prop walk to pretty much the same effect anyway. It is a bit one directional though

the downside is that unless you can prove that it works you have an unsellable Centaur - but then a Centaur with a knackered inboard is unsellable as wellanyway

Well, one with a knackered engine will sell for a few grand. One with a DIY outboard well and no inboard at all you'd probably struggle to give away IMO!
so....

QUOTE=dylanwinter;4411392]who wants to have go at the physics?[/QUOTE]

Nah, the echo gnomics don't add up anyway!

 

[Boathook]

Therein lies the rub. It would have to be a "stupid" size to be a practical auxilliary for such a boat. There aare clearly advantages to an outboard, and on many boats they are superior. however, there comes a point related to size weight and expectations when they cease to be the right thing - and the Centaur is across that line. An outboard would be inferior to an inboard in all functional respects.

I have a honda 30 on my boat that either I service or I take it off and hand over to my honda dealer. Main problem is fuel consumption, but when you bring in fuel costs etc it is a 10 year payback, etc.

 

[fergie_mac66]

replace the diesel with a good 2 stroke dolpin 12 hp, petrol, no gearbox only weighs 60 lds easy to put in and easy to get out !

 

[Seajet]

Dolphins were available with a gearbox as opposed to the Youtube begging ' stop then nip below to start in reverse when manouvering in a marina ', I know someone who collects and works on them.

Personally I'd only use one on a lawnmower

 

[rogerball0]

Given the low price of centaurs with jiggered engines

got me thinking.....

I came across a chap who put a well in a Pageant

http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/blogs/bloody-nora-westerly-pageant/

why not a cenatur?

and what size outboard?

D

Yes its been done to a Centaur albeit with some surgery, well its more a sliding car on the transom although i would prefer the prop in front of the rudder for reasons mentioned, but this guy seems confident.

Website: http://www.bristol27.com/everything-else/erics-westerly-26

I definately considered chopping a well into mine and moving the rudder to the transom when i found out my lump was dead but couldn't figure out how you charged the electrics so my question is how do you charge the boats electrics with only an outboard for power?

cheers roger

www.agentlemansyacht.com