Engine trouble to finish the great adventure

[Reptile Smile]

Hi all,

Long story short: I recently bought a very very cheap boat on eBay, and single-handed it back from Maldon, aiming to bring it back across the Thames estuary, up the Thames through London, and back via the K&A.

This all went swimmingly (sort of, but that's another story), but once I got above Teddington last night, I realised that the one thing I hadn't really taken into account was how well the little diesel - a Vetus M2C5 (I think, or is it M2D5?) would cope with going upstream on the Thames.

The boat has no temperature gauge, only a rev counter, so I really have no idea how hard I should be driving it. I had come all the way through London the previous day at 2000 rpm, so tried that.

It was still v slow, and the lock keeper at Sunbury asked me whether I was struggling with the current. I said I was, and was it always this bad? He admitted the river was full after all the rain this morning, and said there was more on the way down.

Leaving Sunbury lock, I was fiddling around with fuel, and hadn't noticed I was drifting a little far in front of the weir (idiot). I gave it some beans to pull clear, but there was no increase in revs. There was a substantial increase in black smoke coming out with the exhaust water - I said oily water at the time, though all I can say it was black, and that it was considerably worse the more revs I tried to give it.

I started panic a bit, not getting clear of the weir. I managed to crab over the side, and from their, out of the pull, managed to inch forwards, and ended up having to leave it on an Environment Agency barge that was moored up ahead.

My initial presumption was that this was to do with driving it too hard/overheating. I was anxious it was a head gasket. When the engine cooled down, though, I couldn't see any water on the dipstick.

In fact, when it had cooled down, I started it again, and it appeared fine. It was happy to be revved to 4k (which it wouldn't do before), and there was no sign of any black smoke in the cooling water. That said, the river was even more full flowing than before, and I thought it would be crackers to set off then. Whilst this has left me with more difficulties (in terms of being stuck behind a lock closure until the end of January), I don't really know what to think.

The boat had been sat in the yard for about 3 years. I'm certain it hadn't been serviced in that time, so I guess I'll ask someone to service it, just as a matter of good practice, and see what they think a bout the black smoke issue/loss of power at the same time. I mean, I now have time to get this sorted, seeing as I can't get above Old Windsor until the end of January. But I was wondering if anyone had thoughts?

Any ideas gratefully received. Cheers all.

 

[duncan99210]

There is a member of this forum who regularly recommends that you administer an 'Italian tune up' to a cranky engine, which may clear up problems in engines which have been inactive for a bit by running them hard. It sounds as if you may have inadvertently done just this to you engine.... If the beast is still running, indeed it seems to be doing better than before, you may well have sorted it.

 

[Heckler]

Hi all,

Long story short: I recently bought a very very cheap boat on eBay, and single-handed it back from Maldon, aiming to bring it back across the Thames estuary, up the Thames through London, and back via the K&A.

This all went swimmingly (sort of, but that's another story), but once I got above Teddington last night, I realised that the one thing I hadn't really taken into account was how well the little diesel - a Vetus M2C5 (I think, or is it M2D5?) would cope with going upstream on the Thames.

The boat has no temperature gauge, only a rev counter, so I really have no idea how hard I should be driving it. I had come all the way through London the previous day at 2000 rpm, so tried that.

It was still v slow, and the lock keeper at Sunbury asked me whether I was struggling with the current. I said I was, and was it always this bad? He admitted the river was full after all the rain this morning, and said there was more on the way down.

Leaving Sunbury lock, I was fiddling around with fuel, and hadn't noticed I was drifting a little far in front of the weir (idiot). I gave it some beans to pull clear, but there was no increase in revs. There was a substantial increase in black smoke coming out with the exhaust water - I said oily water at the time, though all I can say it was black, and that it was considerably worse the more revs I tried to give it.

I started panic a bit, not getting clear of the weir. I managed to crab over the side, and from their, out of the pull, managed to inch forwards, and ended up having to leave it on an Environment Agency barge that was moored up ahead.

My initial presumption was that this was to do with driving it too hard/overheating. I was anxious it was a head gasket. When the engine cooled down, though, I couldn't see any water on the dipstick.

In fact, when it had cooled down, I started it again, and it appeared fine. It was happy to be revved to 4k (which it wouldn't do before), and there was no sign of any black smoke in the cooling water. That said, the river was even more full flowing than before, and I thought it would be crackers to set off then. Whilst this has left me with more difficulties (in terms of being stuck behind a lock closure until the end of January), I don't really know what to think.

The boat had been sat in the yard for about 3 years. I'm certain it hadn't been serviced in that time, so I guess I'll ask someone to service it, just as a matter of good practice, and see what they think a bout the black smoke issue/loss of power at the same time. I mean, I now have time to get this sorted, seeing as I can't get above Old Windsor until the end of January. But I was wondering if anyone had thoughts?

Any ideas gratefully received. Cheers all.

Black smoke and no revs can mean lots of things, a rag or something around the prop, a blockage in the intake, OR even a blockage in the exhaust where the raw water is injected in to the exhaust. think carbon and salt.
Start it up, whilst tied up, put it in gear and give it rice. See what happens. If it wont rev then knock it out of gear and rev it. if it revs up then it is something to do with the drive system otherwise start looking for blockages
Stu

 

[Reptile Smile]

There is a member of this forum who regularly recommends that you administer an 'Italian tune up' to a cranky engine, which may clear up problems in engines which have been inactive for a bit by running them hard. It sounds as if you may have inadvertently done just this to you engine.... If the beast is still running, indeed it seems to be doing better than before, you may well have sorted it.

Maybe. On the first trip out into the Middle Deep from Maldon, I'd inadvertantly run it a bit hard then, and the temperature light had sort of come on low-ish.

This time, there was none of that - just a loss of power, and plenty of smoke. Trouble is, I'm reluctant to tackle too much of the Thames without confidence in the engine (though now I'm behind the lock, I'm in the area for a bit anyway!)

To clarify, when I said it wouldn't rev to 4k before, it would rev that high before the 'black smoke' incident - it just wouldn't rev hard when I was having the issues. Once it cooled down, it was then able to run again...

 

[Reptile Smile]

Black smoke and no revs can mean lots of things, a rag or something around the prop, a blockage in the intake, OR even a blockage in the exhaust where the raw water is injected in to the exhaust. think carbon and salt.
Start it up, whilst tied up, put it in gear and give it rice. See what happens. If it wont rev then knock it out of gear and rev it. if it revs up then it is something to do with the drive system otherwise start looking for blockages
Stu

Stu - when it was doing it before, it was doing the black smoke thing in both neutral and in gear. When it cooled down, it then wasn't doing it (though it's a good point - I didn't then try it in gear. But when it was doing it, it was doing it in both).

But then why would it 'clear' when it had 'cooled down'..?

 

[Heckler]

Stu - when it was doing it before, it was doing the black smoke thing in both neutral and in gear. When it cooled down, it then wasn't doing it (though it's a good point - I didn't then try it in gear. But when it was doing it, it was doing it in both).

But then why would it 'clear' when it had 'cooled down'..?

Maybe overheating then starting to seize, nipping up as its known. This could explain it, the engine tightens, cant rev, black smoke because the engine is overfueling for the revs
Stu

 

[rob2]

There are quite a few things that could cause similar problems. Perhaps start with checking the cooling water flow - you may have picked something up on the intake or lost a part of the impeller. Also with the engine stopped and in neutral try turning the propshaft by hand, it should be quite easy to move. As has already been said, you could have picked up a carrier bag on the prop!

Just a few to start with...

Rob.

 

[claudio]

Its probably worth changing the oil too because if it is old it may have lost its lubricity

 

[sailorman]

There are quite a few things that could cause similar problems. Perhaps start with checking the cooling water flow - you may have picked something up on the intake or lost a part of the impeller. Also with the engine stopped and in neutral try turning the propshaft by hand, it should be quite easy to move. As has already been said, you could have picked up a carrier bag on the prop!

Just a few to start with...

Rob.

is the stern gland too tight, does it get too hot to touch

 

[Avocet]

Is that the first time you'd given the engine any pain since buying the boat? Is it possible that it's just "over-propped" and always has been? (too big a diameter or coarse a pitch of prop). It would account for the black smoke under load.

 

[eagleswing]

more engine thoughts..

Black smoke indicates poor and incomplete combustion of the diesel fuel. There are some likely causes, including…

maintenance issues: Incorrect timing,dirty or worn injectors-Incorrect valve clearance-Dirty air cleaner. Rx: how long since these were serviced ? any idea how many hours on the engine?valves need to be done every 300 hours or so..

wear issues: Low cylinder compression (eg sticking piston rings or worn components)allowing incomplete combustion and carbon blowing out the exhaust -Rx have the mechanic check rings , valves, valve seats for excessive carbon buildup

hot operating temperatures: check for clean water filter and good flow of cooling h 2 0 in raw water cooling system, check raw water pump impeller for broken bits . check closed antifreeze cooling system for fresh antifreeze and no bits of impeller stuck in cooling pipes of heat exchanger.

Obviously, worn or damaged components must be replaced, and the earlier you identify and fix the problem, the less damage will be done. Keep on top of engine tune issues, including valve adjustments, and regular servicing of air, fuel and oil filters. Do not buy fuel from suspect outlets. some dirty components, such as injectors can be easily restored to full cleanliness by using an effective and reliable fuel system cleaner or replacing the injector...

good luck and let us know what your mechanic finds...

eagleswing, on the hard for the winter in erie PA

 

[fisherman]

I've just done a canal trip and the prop was regularly fouled with leaves, enough to slow the 42 hp engine and affect handling and speed.
To get it home can you buy a second hand outboard and fit on a cantilever bracket, just to get you along a bit more briskly? Sell it on when done.

 

[Nick Marine Eng]

Hi all,

Long story short: I recently bought a very very cheap boat on eBay, and single-handed it back from Maldon, aiming to bring it back across the Thames estuary, up the Thames through London, and back via the K&A.

This all went swimmingly (sort of, but that's another story), but once I got above Teddington last night, I realised that the one thing I hadn't really taken into account was how well the little diesel - a Vetus M2C5 (I think, or is it M2D5?) would cope with going upstream on the Thames.

The boat has no temperature gauge, only a rev counter, so I really have no idea how hard I should be driving it. I had come all the way through London the previous day at 2000 rpm, so tried that.

It was still v slow, and the lock keeper at Sunbury asked me whether I was struggling with the current. I said I was, and was it always this bad? He admitted the river was full after all the rain this morning, and said there was more on the way down.

Leaving Sunbury lock, I was fiddling around with fuel, and hadn't noticed I was drifting a little far in front of the weir (idiot). I gave it some beans to pull clear, but there was no increase in revs. There was a substantial increase in black smoke coming out with the exhaust water - I said oily water at the time, though all I can say it was black, and that it was considerably worse the more revs I tried to give it.

I started panic a bit, not getting clear of the weir. I managed to crab over the side, and from their, out of the pull, managed to inch forwards, and ended up having to leave it on an Environment Agency barge that was moored up ahead.

My initial presumption was that this was to do with driving it too hard/overheating. I was anxious it was a head gasket. When the engine cooled down, though, I couldn't see any water on the dipstick.

In fact, when it had cooled down, I started it again, and it appeared fine. It was happy to be revved to 4k (which it wouldn't do before), and there was no sign of any black smoke in the cooling water. That said, the river was even more full flowing than before, and I thought it would be crackers to set off then. Whilst this has left me with more difficulties (in terms of being stuck behind a lock closure until the end of January), I don't really know what to think.

The boat had been sat in the yard for about 3 years. I'm certain it hadn't been serviced in that time, so I guess I'll ask someone to service it, just as a matter of good practice, and see what they think a bout the black smoke issue/loss of power at the same time. I mean, I now have time to get this sorted, seeing as I can't get above Old Windsor until the end of January. But I was wondering if anyone had thoughts?

Any ideas gratefully received. Cheers all.

Might be worth checking the Injectors as they are the most likely cause of black smoke under load. Perhaps you can also retro-fit a temp guage which would put your mind at rest aswell. The engine has also not been run for a long time as you said so perhaps a service would be a good idea.

 

[Heckler]

Might be worth checking the Injectors as they are the most likely cause of black smoke under load. Perhaps you can also retro-fit a temp guage which would put your mind at rest aswell. The engine has also not been run for a long time as you said so perhaps a service would be a good idea.

Hmm, injectors not the most likely cause at all! One should check the simplest easy things first, black smoke is usually caused by overloading the engine, i listed the most common causes in my first post!
Stu

 

[ianat182]

I don't know your engine but does your engine have a cold start button to depress when starting up, if so, it may be stuck instead of releasing when the engine revs.

Is there a good flow of water from the exhaust as well as the black smoke?

If your engine has overheated without the water flow the exhaust hose may be delaminated or melted and causing back-pressure when you try to rev.

Leaves and debris on the Thames must be a cause of many engines overheating; I'd check the raw water filter as a first check, then impeller; if debris found then I'd check the freshwater/antifreeze in any heat exchanger and top up/drain off and refill with 50/50 antifreeze/corrosion inhibitor and distilled water.

Good luck


ianat182

 

[Nick Marine Eng]

Might be worth checking the Injectors as they are the most likely cause of black smoke under load. Perhaps you can also retro-fit a temp guage which would put your mind at rest aswell. The engine has also not been run for a long time as you said so perhaps a service would be a good idea.

As detailed by ( eagleswing ) and my earlier post black smoke is caused by poor combustion, too much fuel or not enough air. This can also lead to a loss of power, please have a look on line at the Diesel smoke diagnostic chart under (black exhaust smoke). This gives you the most common causes and solutions.
I have repaired many such engine issues and injectors/air intake are the prime causes.

Good luck

 

[Seajet]

I would be thinking on the lines of water cooled exhaust getting much too hot, check it's getting flow.

 

[mtb]

could be

a sticking valve or govenor
why dont you get it lifted and moved upriver a bit, a 7.5 t flat bed with a long reach hiab should be fine and cheap, there used to be a few owner drivers around west london

cheers
mick

 

[Heckler]

As detailed by ( eagleswing ) and my earlier post black smoke is caused by poor combustion, too much fuel or not enough air. This can also lead to a loss of power, please have a look on line at the Diesel smoke diagnostic chart under (black exhaust smoke). This gives you the most common causes and solutions.
I have repaired many such engine issues and injectors/air intake are the prime causes.

Good luck

Dear Boy, how long have you been attempting to repair diesel engines?
Stu

 

[Burnham Bob]

another vote for leaves and rubbish fouling the prop. we too have just come back from a canal cruise (admittedly on a narrowboat) but we were in the London area and regularly the big 4 cylinder beta simply seemed to lose power and we lost steerage. there is so much rubbish in the water that it really does collect around the prop and rudder. a strong belt of reverse cured it every time and the amount of rubbish seen in our wake was quite astonishing. it does seem to collect near bridges and locks. i suspect that when you opened the throttle, the poor little diesel just couldn't chew its way through the rubbish - hence the black smoke. when you stopped it dropped off. unlike a rope or long strands of seaweed, the rubbish near locks doesn't wrap itself round the prop - it just accumulates.