Engine Development

Chris_d said:
Short answer no, marinised automotive engines rarely work, look at the Volvo D3 disaster, the Mercruiser/Isuzu 1.7 turbo, VW V6's etc... the list goes on. The best marine engines out there are all made for the marine market only, Volvo AD's, KAD's, TAMD's, D4, D6 etc.... an exception is the Japs using the old 4.2 Toyota motor but thats a big old block and hardly a chainsaw motor as Latestarter would put it.
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I'm not sure that's an entirely fair comment. some of the most reliable and long lasting of all marine engines have come from the automotive sector in trucks or vans. Very few marine engines are designed from the start as marine engines including those from Penta. My understanding is that the D3's main issues were with it's ancillaries?
 
Not fair maybe but mud sticks. The days when diesel engines were simple and considered the reliable go on forever choice are now long gone, if you don't want many issues with your car buy the petrol version.
 
cryan said:
I'm not sure that's an entirely fair comment. Lancing Marine do/did marinisation of the mechanical Puma intended for non emissions regulated markets. Not sure if this version still in production, full authority electronic versions as for as I know not sold by Ford Power Products. Very few marine engines are designed from the start as marine engines including those from Penta. My understanding is that the D3's main issues were with it's ancillaries?
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Can you be a little more specific 'some of the most reliable and long lasting of all marine engines have come from the automotive sector in trucks or vans. Very few marine engines are designed from the start as marine engines including those from Penta' Your proposal is to marinise an LDA (Light Duty Automotive) not a truck engine, history has told us that unless installed 100% correctly and propped light these engines have the durability of a disposable cigarette lighter. Policing all this will cost somebody. Ford ECU does not use a true J1939 protocol, working out how engine can be made to 'talk' to instruments is a massive undertaking, without the support of Ford. How much research have you actually done into the Puma 2.2?

You have talked glibly about about support not being a problem without any facts, similar to lack of meat on how a complex automotive engine will be turned into a decent marine engine. Mike Beacham owner of Watermota and distributor of Hyundai Seasall has 12 dealers just in your neck of the woods alone.

You sell Mermaid engines, like Watamota they used to marinise Ford base engines however both companies concluded that there was no future in what you are proposing.

You are an agent for FNM Fiat based marine engines http://www.cryco.co.uk/fnm-marine.php who have product in exactly the displacement/power node you are talking about, these appear fit the bill perfectly as they have official support all with decent looking marinisation, not my cup of tea however a heap less trouble and expense than re-inventing the wheel.
 
Latestarter1 said:
Can you be a little more specific 'some of the most reliable and long lasting of all marine engines have come from the automotive sector in trucks or vans. Very few marine engines are designed from the start as marine engines including those from Penta' Your proposal is to marinise an LDA (Light Duty Automotive) not a truck engine, history has told us that unless installed 100% correctly and propped light these engines have the durability of a disposable cigarette lighter. Policing all this will cost somebody. Ford ECU does not use a true J1939 protocol, working out how engine can be made to 'talk' to instruments is a massive undertaking, without the support of Ford. How much research have you actually done into the Puma 2.2?

You have talked glibly about about support not being a problem without any facts, similar to lack of meat on how a complex automotive engine will be turned into a decent marine engine. Mike Beacham owner of Watermota and distributor of Hyundai Seasall has 12 dealers just in your neck of the woods alone.

You sell Mermaid engines, like Watamota they used to marinise Ford base engines however both companies concluded that there was no future in what you are proposing.

You are an agent for FNM Fiat based marine engines http://www.cryco.co.uk/fnm-marine.php who have product in exactly the displacement/power node you are talking about, these appear fit the bill perfectly as they have official support all with decent looking marinisation, not my cup of tea however a heap less trouble and expense than re-inventing the wheel.
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I appreciate your concern but obviously for commercial reasons we can't say too much about the project tech details. The purpose of this thread is to judge the boating public's views towards this engines use in the marine world. It is true that through our dealership agreement with Mermaid Marine that we offer the FNM range of automotive based engines, Fiat Group based in that case. These are very good engines for the leisure boating market especially for fast plaining craft such as RIBs. It may appear that the Ford unit is similar but it should be remembered that in some of the vehicles this engine is fitted they have towing capacities up a slope of 3500kg in vehicles in excess of 2000kg. Yes we are aware of the issues with Ford engine management systems, yes we do have experts in that field.
I realise that there are often hair brained business schemes banded about these forums but that is not the game we are in. We are a professional marine engineering company with a background in commercial shipping, ship repair/building and offshore oil and gas. We would NEVER sell a product which we felt was not fit for purpose in a marine environment and which we couldn't fully support, nationwide, over its lifespan. If we progress with this project it would not be brought to market without warranties. I really can't stress enough how un-naive we are of the marine market. We are well aware of the pros and cons of such a marinisation and of the history of other companies forays into this type of conversion. But obviously we can't just give every detail of the project out on this forum at this time.

What we are really looking for is thoughts on the engine itself. especially on things like its relatively compact size, power to weight ratio, ease of service, and availability of parts etc. Are these qualities buyers in the leisure market would look for?
 
OK I understand now, PowerTorque owners of Mermaid and Ford Power Products Dealer giving you expertise into Ford engine management systems as well as having engine test facilities.

The Ford Puma 2.2 is development of original Ricardo designed Puma which had a troubled birth, as Ford engineering rejected original Ricardo engine design and made them cost reduce it, to the extent of removing the Lanchester shaft which is partly where the camshaft drive went pear shaped.

2.2 is a major rework, and the redundant balancer shaft tunnel taken out of the casting and reportedly far better engine, however some fundamental weaknesses still remain in base design, in many ways engine is inferior to the Fiat/GM Unijet II engine you are selling now. Google Ford Transit diesel engine problems, engine hardly has stellar reputation, yes 2.2 may be better but still comparatively new and not stood the test of time, not being anti, I run one.

It now appears that you are focused on commercial market as FNM ticks the leisure boxes, not sure why you keep returning to asking about the leisure market about your proposed product. Any LDA engine in a marine application is living on the edge, in commercial applications simply nuts.

As I have mentioned before your assurances are glib and lack the substance to give any potential purchaser confidence.

Please let me try one one more time, Yanmar contracted a top draw engineering outfit, Steyr to marinise BMW diesel engines. Yanmar have deep pockets, far deeper than PowerTorque/Cryco by factor of many hundreds, the BY project went wrong badly wrong resulting in EVERY BY being subject to requiring major re-work to revised BY2 spec, costs were huge and they still missed a few screwing up owners big time.

You want answers regarding market acceptance, I suspect on the basis of vague information so far supplied builders/owners will say 'count me out'.
 
From one or two years experience in the boating world would avoid like the plague anything without a long long history of exposure to the real boating world of lying idle for months and then getting a demand to power 6 tonnes of boat within 10 mins of start up and doing so reliably year after year without major rebuilds.
 
Here is a benchmark for you to consider Cryan.

Just had email from somebody who had requested quote for new Hyundai Seasall package, three year bumper to bumper warranty.
 
Spot of drift: if I wish to replace the engine on my boat, I shall be, metaphorically, knocking on Latestarter's door.


John G
 
cryan said:
Petrol and Diesel may be similar in price if your paying tax on the fuel but diesel engines use a lit less fuel for the output.
I would not expect someone to re-engine a £2k boat with a new engine of this power output as obviously the engine will not be as cost effective although of course a boat with no engine is pretty much worthless.
Brand loyalty is your choice of course but remember very few of the base engines of those brands are sourced in-house so you have to ask yourself if that loyalty is really just to green paint? The engine we're looking at is built in the UK, would be marinised in the UK and even if not buying parts from us you could find a source for all the base engine parts in just about every town in the UK, we could paint it green if you preferred?:) after sales support will be no problem.
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Diesels don't actually use a LOT less than petrols, they use a bit less - at 200hp the difference is probably about 20% so the average boat going 50hrs a year with a petrol boat burning 10gal/hr at cruise and a diesel burning 8gal/hr at cruise the difference is 100 gal - perhaps £700 per year. Many people can find that, but they can't find £10-15K to buy a new engine!

You're missing my point on the loyalty thing - I have ABSOLUTELY no brand loyalty to Volvo / Mercruiser. However if I want to sell my boat I need something in it that's recognised.

Lets say I have a Sealine S24 (I don't but it's a decent example) and my petrol engine blows up.... I can replace it for £3-4k with another petrol or....

I have a few choices, I can go Volvo / Merc or I can take a flyer and fit a Yanmar (fairly well known, not very risky, but not much saving either) or a Hyundai (Risky - well known make but not in the Marine Market - so to make it worth it I'd need to see a proper saving) or I can fit your engine....

Now, what will your engine cost vs the competition? It's not worth saving £300 - £1000 if your boat is going to be worth £5000 less when you come to sell it.

If I drop a Volvo D4 260hp in my mythical boat, I will have spent a LOT of money, enjoyed a good boat for a few years, and get a very good price for my boat when I sell it because everyone knows what a D4 is, how it works and where they can get it serviced. If I have your engine in, how will you value the boat? How will a Broker describe it?

IF and it's a colossal IF you can get a mainstream manufacturer onside and get them to fit your motors as OEM installations, and the motors do well, then you will have a very real chance, however if you are looking at the aftermarket re-power market it's my opinion you'll only succeed if you can knock the spots off the competition on price, offer a decent warranty (and make sure that warranty is backed up so if your company fails people feel they will still be able to get the warranty offered (insurance backed essentially)).

I know you don't want to make too many promises of anything at this stage, but realistically, fully marinised with adapters to the main drive legs (VP and Merc) what are you thinking you will be able to bring this engine to market at because unless it's 50-70% of the cost of the established players I fear it won't sell...
 
I think it would be competetive on price, though not 70% less than the other brands.
I appreciate the feedback and its certainly food for thought. It's interesting to see where different peoples priorities are.
 
Latestarter and on the plane have summed up my thoughts on the matter quite well so far.

The other aspect is Volvo Penta and others now offer a reasonably priced full warranty to 5 years although it ties you in for servicing.

At a guess for lightweight diesel engines in the power range you are talking about 90% of engines will be fitted to an outdrive, I assume you are proposing using Mercruiser drives and building them into the package and I assume a Merc drive sells at say £5 to £7k retail ex vat which takes say 40% of the package value to be competitive with, Ie a fixed price element making up say 40% of the package.

This does not seem to be a thriving market sector for repowers in volume and I would assume for OEMs a very difficult market to break in to for new boat for volume manufacture.

So in this fuel and this power range, of the brands who are the players in descending order?

Volvo Penta own engine range and own leg, they wont let other engine manufacturers play with their legs
Mercruiser own engine range own leg ( diesel range has been a bit patchy over the years)
Yanmar with I believe a Merc leg on the smaller stuff or own leg for higher power I don't think they sell their leg on to other oems
Nanni with a mercruiser leg.

The above are the main players in Europe/UK I believe. BMW got in and out of the market 20 years ago because they could not get it to work. Yamaha a big player in out boards with their own outdrive pulled out, OMC a big player in outboards with their own outdrive pulled out.

Are there any other significant players in the diesel outdrive market ?
 
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Excuse a yottie butting in here but Beta seem to have managed to do in the yacht motor replacement business much the same as you want to do for stinkpots

I don't think anyone is put off buying a s/h yacht when they find it has a Beta engine.

What are the lessons here?
 
davidej said:
Excuse a yottie butting in here but Beta seem to have managed to do in the yacht motor replacement business much the same as you want to do for stinkpots

I don't think anyone is put off buying a s/h yacht when they find it has a Beta engine.

What are the lessons here?
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Very fair comment however Beta have worked hard building a dealer network in every port of call, some very good some indifferent but still signs up over the door wherever you go which is what boat owners want, support support support. Leads to market acceptance

Suspect Cryan has a plan similar in mind as I did push him on the subject.
 
cryan said:
I think it would be competetive on price, though not 70% less than the other brands.
I appreciate the feedback and its certainly food for thought. It's interesting to see where different peoples priorities are.
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You wouldn't need to be 70% cheaper, 70% of the cost (30% cheaper) and I'd start to consider it. 60% of the cost (40% cheaper) and I'd be seriously considering it and at 50% of the cost you'd be really really torn - to the point where you'd weigh up everything, the warranty, likely resale and so forth. However, if we're talking about say £13k to re-engine with a Volvo or £7k to use one of your motors, you would very much be in the game. At £13k for a Volvo or £12k for yours, even if yours was torquier, prettier, cheaper parts and so on, I wouldn't even consider it as I'd more than lose that saving on resale....

The other thing is if you can do some adapter so you can connect to the VP OR Merc leg without needing any other adapters and kit then that would also help especially if I'm looking to repower a Merc setup.
 
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