Emergency inner forestay options

[laika]

When I had my boat re-rigged immediately after purchase I was quoted for an emergency inner forestay tensioned by a highfield lever but at the time didn't have the funds. I'm revisiting that now but the rigger I'm talking to tells me that I can't have a highfield lever because my standing rigging is 10mm which is more than can be used with such a device. I'm no expert when it comes to rigging and almost always defer to professionals but this doesn't sound right to me: I know of bigger boats than mine with forestays tensioned that way. I did question whether the inner forestay which will only be for flying a storm job from needs to be the same thickness as the rest of the rig which he said it did.

Can someone help me resolve the discrepancy between my intuition and what I'm being told?

The alternative suggested was a storm jib with dynema sewn into the luff which would be hoisted on a dynema halyard and tensioned on a cockpit winch. This sounds good to me (no wire forestay to worry about securing at the side when not in use) but would the required tension be a danger to the sheaves? Anyone got such an arrangement?

 

[Biggles Wader]

Surely if this forestay is not fitted now it must be not required to stay the mast.If so I would think it can be any thickness that you want as long as you can hoist a jib on it?

 

[laika]

Surely if this forestay is not fitted now it must be not required to stay the mast.If so I would think it can be any thickness that you want as long as you can hoist a jib on it?

That was my thinking.

 

[jwilson]

If the "emergency inner forestay" is intended to supplant the main forestay if it breaks, or is removed,a nd you still want to sail, then 10mm seems sensible and logical. Usually though it is there primarily (hopefully only) to hoist a storm jib, in which case it only needs to be thick/strong enough and taut enough to hank on to and thus remove the truly horrible snatch loads created if you ever try and hoist a jib flying - ie without the luff being controlled.

 

[BabaYaga]

When I asked a Seldén representative about this, the answer was that one size down is OK, since that stay is not structional. Still must be able to handle the forces involved without stretching too much.

Don't know about highfield levers, but suppose it would have to be huge to get even a 8mm stay correctly tensioned. On my set up I use a normal turn buckle with "handles". A bit slower (12 turns, 30 seconds), but better tension. (Though this is on a 6mm stay).

The idea of hoisting a sail free flying in conditions when a storm sail is needed sounds quite unrealistic to me.

 

[lpdsn]

Talk to the rigger again. Clarify exactly what your requirements are. I.e. is it only to hoist a storm jib, not to support the mast? See what he says. If not happy talk to another rigger.

Presumably, the rigger who replaced the standing rigging was willing to do it, as you presumably got as far as discussing cost.

 

[laika]

Talk to the rigger again. Clarify exactly what your requirements are. I.e. is it only to hoist a storm jib, not to support the mast? See what he says. If not happy talk to another rigger.

That's exactly what I did at the time: asking if the same thickness was needed if all I wanted to do was fly a storm job. Interesting to see BabaYaga's post which seems to confirm the advice. Currently a bit far away from Plymouth where the other riggers were although I very much respected their opinion/work.

I do like the dynema idea, just concerned about tension over the sheaves.

 

[BabaYaga]

That's exactly what I did at the time: asking if the same thickness was needed if all I wanted to do was fly a storm job. Interesting to see BabaYaga's post which seems to confirm the advice.

Just to clarify: The advice given to me was that "one size down" is OK, that is for a rig with 10mm standing rigging, 8mm would be OK for an inner forestay.

 

[Minchsailor]

When I asked a Seldén representative about this, the answer was that one size down is OK, since that stay is not structional. Still must be able to handle the forces involved without stretching too much.

Don't know about highfield levers, but suppose it would have to be huge to get even a 8mm stay correctly tensioned. On my set up I use a normal turn buckle with "handles". A bit slower (12 turns, 30 seconds), but better tension. (Though this is on a 6mm stay).

I can confirm that - I have a Highfield lever on my inner forestay (only used for a storm jib) and even though I have done it as much as I can, I cannot get it as tight as I would like. Might add that I have never had to use it anger.

 

[lpdsn]

I can confirm that - I have a Highfield lever on my inner forestay (only used for a storm jib) and even though I have done it as much as I can, I cannot get it as tight as I would like. Might add that I have never had to use it anger.

It should be possible for the OP, or you, to deal with that by getting the sailmaker to match the luff of the storm jib to the inner forestay (even if the latter is not as tight as he'd/you'd like).

 

[dslittle]

I have a Dyneema inner forestay that I use for my working jib upwind with no problems tensioning on one of the secondary winches through a sheave and blocks. I also expect it to surfice IF I ever need to use my storm jib...

 

[KevinT1]

When I had my boat re-rigged immediately after purchase I was quoted for an emergency inner forestay tensioned by a highfield lever but at the time didn't have the funds. I'm revisiting that now but the rigger I'm talking to tells me that I can't have a highfield lever because my standing rigging is 10mm which is more than can be used with such a device. I'm no expert when it comes to rigging and almost always defer to professionals but this doesn't sound right to me: I know of bigger boats than mine with forestays tensioned that way. I did question whether the inner forestay which will only be for flying a storm job from needs to be the same thickness as the rest of the rig which he said it did.

Can someone help me resolve the discrepancy between my intuition and what I'm being told?

The alternative suggested was a storm jib with dynema sewn into the luff which would be hoisted on a dynema halyard and tensioned on a cockpit winch. This sounds good to me (no wire forestay to worry about securing at the side when not in use) but would the required tension be a danger to the sheaves? Anyone got such an arrangement?

Hi Laika, I have this available - significantly better than a highfield lever

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?410966-Wichard-Baby-Stay-Adjuster-5546

Kevin

 

[GrahamM376]

Everything except our lowers and baby stay are 10mm but the emergency stay is 8mm.

Beware of using a Highfield lever. Our emergency stay parks on the toe rail and the deck fitting has a wire strop with hole in the end of the terminal.

Underway in any kind of chop it's virtually impossible to hold 47ft of swinging stay + the strop + get the pin in single handed. Considering fitting something similar to main sheet assembly to be able to haul it tight and then get the pin in.

 

[knuterikt]

When I had my boat re-rigged immediately after purchase I was quoted for an emergency inner forestay tensioned by a highfield lever but at the time didn't have the funds. I'm revisiting that now but the rigger I'm talking to tells me that I can't have a highfield lever because my standing rigging is 10mm which is more than can be used with such a device. I'm no expert when it comes to rigging and almost always defer to professionals but this doesn't sound right to me: I know of bigger boats than mine with forestays tensioned that way. I did question whether the inner forestay which will only be for flying a storm job from needs to be the same thickness as the rest of the rig which he said it did.

Can someone help me resolve the discrepancy between my intuition and what I'm being told?

The alternative suggested was a storm jib with dynema sewn into the luff which would be hoisted on a dynema halyard and tensioned on a cockpit winch. This sounds good to me (no wire forestay to worry about securing at the side when not in use) but would the required tension be a danger to the sheaves? Anyone got such an arrangement?

Have you asked the rigger why the extra forestay need to be 10mm, it must be based on some assumption on the loads.
Emergency inner forestay sounds a bit strange i my ears (I'm Norwegian), I would call it a removable forestay - could there be a misunderstanding about name & usage - emergency = spare forestay = full load?

It's kind of strange the he suggests a sail with Dyneema Luff - if we follow his logic the sail/halyard/clutch must need the same strength as the 10mm wire.

If you want to go for Dyneema luff, I think you should have a furler for that sail also - same as is used for Code 0 sails, hoisting a free flying (storm) sail is not fun..
I got a Solent jib set this way - the halyard is 1:2 purchase, that combo works fine.

Another alternative is to have a Dyneema stay with a cascading tension system and a sail with soft hanks and separate halyard.

Some useful links
http://www.sailmagazine.com/boatworks/convert-your-sloop-double-headsail-rig

http://joecoopersailing.com/storm-jibs-and-solent-stays/

My furler

 

[oldbilbo]

Laika, you have a 'heavy boat' in your 8.4 tonne Westerly Sealord. Hence the 10mm standing rigging. My wee floaty boaty is a bit more than one-third that displacement, so my thoughts may have about one-third the relevance....

I've explored with several fitters the notion of fitting an 'inner forestay' for a furling smaller headsail, and they each say that's well practicable - PROVIDED the load path at the head of this 'new stay extended' intersects approximately with the backstay's pin ( load path joins up ). That's why they specify a new upper tang not more than about 1 metre below the existing forestay's tang, I understand. See Selden's catalogue. Otherwise, additional backstays are normally required to avoid risk of mast damage.

Of course, if the mast is designed to bend in the upper panel by application of variable backstay tension, that's different. Neither yours nor mine qualify.

So, the arrangement shown above by 'knuterikt' is viable - but that's not a storm jib, which should be a darned sight smaller than most Solent Specimens think OK.

Instead, I have also a much lower new tang, fitted just above the single-spreader height and I will rig a removable flexible wire stay ( call it a 'baby stay' ) from there, terminating in a strong-enough rigging screw with a pelican hook ( such as are used on opening lifelines ), which will secure onto the same foredeck fitting as the new inner forestay with the furling gear. That arrangement could also be done in Dyneema. The small storm jib will be set on that setup.... lower, and closer to CLR. Better boat balance....

I have the advantage of fore and aft-leading lower shrouds, so the aftermost of these should support the forward/side pull of that storm jib without the need for running backstays.

The advice was to fit and try it in stiff breeze and moderate sea. Observe the motion of the mast. Decide if 'belt and braces' is needed, or just 'belt'.

FWIW....

 

[PetiteFleur]

When I got my boat, there was an emergency forestay fitted, which was tied to the toerail but no method or place to attach the lower end to the deck! I fitted a pair of Wichard deck eyes about a metre behind the forestay. Internally there was another padeye back to back with the outer deck one, then a wire strop and lanyard lashing to the forward bulkhead - all places stiffened with suitable backing pads to spread the load over the bulkhead. The emergency stay was fitted to the padeye with an overcentre lever with a snapshackle on the end so no pins to lose. The overcentre lever was adjusted to be tight when operated. The storm jib is hoisted using the spinnaker halyard, which is not strictly in line but in practice is fine. The system tested in f4 and was ok but never used in anger!

 

[Ludd]

My removeable inner stay is attached about .5 metre below m/head (m/head rig) . I tension it with a 4:1 tackle to my samson post which is through fastened to the forward bulkhead. I take the tail of the purchase onto the windlass (used in manual mode) Used in f8/9 in Biscay, coupled with 3rd(very deep )reef in main drove to windward,albeit with a chunk of leeway, very nicely at 7 knots. Tiring,though!

 

[Ian_Edwards]

I don't know whether this will help, but here goes anyway.

Eynhallow has a 23m air draft, carbon rig with rod rigging. I use a Highfield lever to tension a removable inner (wire) forestay on which I fligh a hanked on No3 or a hanked on storm jib as appropriate. I've used both in anger and it works well. I find it fairly easy rig and to get enough tension to prevent too much sag in the luff of the sails.

On my previous boat, a Dufour 40, I had an inner forestay with bottle screw, driven by two handles, to tension it. It was a real pain to use, very heavy and cumbersome. I replaced it with sails with dyneema luff ropes (No 3 and storm jib) and a continuous line furler. The halyard was a 2:1 with 8mm vectran halyard. Even with a reasonably sized cockpit winch and a 2:1 mechanical advantage, I found it hard to get enough tension to stop the luff sagging. There was also a lot of halyard to store when a sail was set.

The single line furler worked in light airs, but the sails had a high aspect ratio and the head of the sail didn't furl well in anything over 20-25 knots, I just got a bag 2/3rd of the way up, despite the sails having vertical battens. It was a catch 22, if a tensioned the sheet to tighten the furl, I hadn't enough strength to pull the furling line. It would have probably worked OK with a full crew, but working essentially single handed, I couldn't get it to work in higher wind speeds.

So on my current, I've reverted to a highfield lever and hanked on sails, I've added fold down pad eyes to the deck so I can secure the sail to the deck with sail ties when not in use, and as I've said this seems to work well.

 

[theoldsalt]

OldBilbo,

Interesting you mention running back stays as my boat has them to counter the load on the mast caused by the extra inner forestay fitted to carry a staysail.

I did write an earlier post asking if anyone else has them but the post didn't get added to the thread.

My yacht has aninner forestay for a staysail/storm jib and I have running back stays.

I take your point that if yoy have aft lowers then running back stays may not be necessary.

 

[William_H]

Several points come out of this. The idea of a dyneema luff in a storm jib (in lieu of a forestay to hank it onto ) sounds interesting. However my experience with dyneema as a jib halyard is that it is not free from stretch and a wire halyard (or forestay will be less stretch.) The concern about the sheaves etc for the dyneems is valid. I would go for a high field lever to tension the luff/forestay after the halyard /forestay has been pulled up. If you want to sail to windward then tension on that forestay will be a must.
Your rigger saying high field lever is not possible with 10mm rigging wire is absurb. Perhaps he refers to high field lever he can buy. certainly they cna be made in any size.
I have a home made high field lever in the bottom of the forestay on my little boat. A TS fractioal rig one flick and the rig is tensioned or released so convenient for mast dropping.
A high filed lever has a finite amount of shortening of the stay so adjustment is not easy unless you have a turn screw or similar in circuit of course.
I would suggest OP tries the dyneema luff storm jib first. If it is a failure re luff tension straightness then a wire will have to be fitted. With not so much waste as dyneema luff will still be usable ona wire.
Re the tang on the mast. This will have a significant pull forward of the mast at that point. It must be either near a point of aft support. ie near the back stay attach or near aft pulling intermediate side stays. Or you may need to fit running back stays for the storm jib. Not a bad option considering the additional mast support which will be given just when things blow hard. But tedious in a tack or gybe.
A storm jib should be used and tested often. That is the only way to have confidence and skills to fit it in anger and to sail with it.
good luck olewill