Ellen – Hero or Stunt Act ?

Golfin technology analogy

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In another professional sport, golf, purists are bemoaning the effect of hi-tech gear, balls, etc., which allows otherwise mediocre players to become multi-millionaires and makes classic courses obsolete. Some of these household names would not be fit to carry the clubs for the likes of Cotton, Hogan, Snead, Player and Nicklaus

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I'm not sure I agree with that either. Firstly that technology is available to ALL who play golf so it doesn't make one player better than another. I use the modern golf technology and I haven't made millions and I still cannot hit it as far or as straight as I would like, so clearly something else is involved here! IMHO too there is no need for classic courses to be obsolete because technology means the pros hit it farther than they did, all that is needed to stop it is to narrow the fairways at the BIG drive distance and grow the rough there thicker - so if you want to be LONG you have to be straight. The demise of the classic courses is a great pity, but is also due to other factors like the lack of viewing areas for spectators in todays numbers, you cannot fit 30,000 spectators along tight tree lined fairways!

Also it is difficult to compare the likes of Snead, Hogan and so on to modern players. Yes they won many many times but there were far fewer others as good whereas today there are very many at the top and any one of them can be good enough to win on the day. What has changed as well as the technology is the absolute dedication to practice and fitness and even the mental game.

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Similarly, with all the technology now available to sailors it seems basic skills are not necessary anymore if one wants to sail across oceans.

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It is certainly true that nowadays many more people cross oceans than used to and certainly it has been made easier with modern boats and navigation systems. But these good folks don't usually cross ALL those oceans in one non-stop flat out trip in conditions that would frighten most of us silly if seen in a photograph. I was trying (and failed) yesterday to antifoul my boat in winds that gusted up to 40kts in the yard and apart from the paint drying so quick the roller stuck to the hull, the incessant noise and the windchill had me giving up and heading for home. What price then the Southern Ocean in a big Tri with no sleep and REAL storms and seas? Yes I have sailed in gales and bad seas over the years but never needing to keep up maximum speed, on my own, with no sleep in a boat that would be more stable upside down. I have also sailed single handed but the most I did was 15 or 16 hours and I was talking to myself after the first couple of hours and swearing at myself after a couple more, it is not as easy as it seems.
 
If at gunpoint I was ordered to sail round the world and offered either Suhaili or B&Q as my weapon of choice, I would choose Suhaili. I can't even comprehend the skills required to keep a 75ft tri the right way up at 30-kts through the Southern Oceans, whereas battling along slowly in a nice solid 32ft-classic is at least something I think I could manage if I had to. I'm not sure that answers the question, but to me there seems to be a whole lot of other challenges in sailing B&Q that make it just as much, or more, of an achievement, than the original pioneering adventurers. Only four people have tried to sail singlehanded RTW in one of the giant multis, only two (Joyon, Ellen) have succeeded. That says something about the feat to me...

And as another poster had noted, she was sailing single handed round Britain at 21, with very little assistance - I think her exceptional sailing skills are a given, IMHO.
 
I agree with Salty and Robin.
But I haven't seen any comment about her preparation. She didn't only just sail round the world. She supervised or personally organised all of the building of B&Q, she knew every bit of her equipment and could service or rebuild it, she was lifting sails so heavy most of you guys would think twice about doing it on your own. She made decisions from admittedly comprehensive weather faxes, and on top of all this, she had to keep the sponsors happy, hence the steady flow of e-mails, even when she wanted nothing more than an hours sleep.
So, yes she had help; who would allow several million pounds of yacht representing many millions of pounds of advertising (best investment B&Q ever made) out on the ocean without the facility of continuous media coverage?
Lets keep some perspective about this subject, please.
 
If at gunpoint I was ordered to sail round the world and offered either Suhaili or B&Q as my weapon of choice, I would choose Suhaili.

You miss the point Salty one and make judgements about the past using todays values. 35 years ago people thought it was dangerous and very difficult to sail any boat alone around the world through the Southern Ocean. In 35 years time people like you will be saying that they would rather sail a tame docile B&Q around the world than whatever the "weapon of choice" is then.

Or, perhaps, you are saying that Robin Knox-Johnstone's circumnavigation was not of any special merit? In todays terms it may not seem so, but in the terms of knowledge and experience of the day I would suspect it far outclassed the one so many seem so besotted over today.

Chichester's circumnavigation was a challenge of his day but today many of the Vendee Globe boats get around the world in less time than it took him to get to Sydney. I would class his voyage as of greater merit too, even though in today's terms it is constantly bettered.

Ellen may be remembered in the future as the second woman (despite all the hooplah she is not the first) to hold the solo circumnavigation record.

John
 
Re: Ellen comments - not permitted?

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I mean, that Talbot and BrandanS wd def get their heads kicked in on the rugby field,

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Oih! I used to play tight head prop for a local team, - but I might be a litle past my "best before" date now! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
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In 35 years time people like you will be saying that they would rather sail a tame docile B&Q around the world than whatever the "weapon of choice" is then.

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Yup, that's progress for you. And whoever has the record down to 50 days in some 150ft wing-masted, canting keeled monster will be as deserving of praise as Ellen is today...



And sorry to rile you on a pet (pardon the pun) subject, Ships Cat, but James never held the record as she stopped twice - in Cape Town to replace her radio and autopilot, and in Falklands for rig repairs. Rules is rules...

I don't think Ellen will be remembered as 'first' or 'second' woman, etc. I think outright record holder is good enough, and to be sixth in the WSSRC's list of single-handed RTW record holders: Knox-Johnston, Blyth, Morgan, Lamazou, Joyon, MacArthur.
 
I can see both sides of this argument, having got into sailing through the exploits of Chichester, Knox Johnston etc. Incidentally, taking part in the same race as R K-J was Nigel Tetley, who got almost all the way round in the same designed tri as Crowhurst's, clearly in the lead, when his boat broke up off the Azores. I'm going from (failing) memory here, so forgive me if I'm wrong on detail. This was a race that Chay Blyth also sailed but gave up part way out and diverted, I think, to Brazil because he thought his boat unsuitable. These people were pathfinders and no less heroic.

I chose the words of my last sentence carefully lest the vociferous Macarthur fan club think I'm doing her down, which I'm not - just trying to put some perspective on this, as John has tried to do.

What I find regrettable in all this is not the disagreement about the scale of her achievement but the intolerant attitudes of those who seek to silence her critics by the use of personal, abusive comments. The idea that you can't comment unless you have the same quota of guts, skill, determination etc. is totally illogical. I couldn't achieve what she has but on the other hand, I couldn't get up on stage in front of a hostile audience and deliver a stream of one liners either. Does that mean I have to find Bernard Manning funny?

Cont. p94
 
Re: Cobblers

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I'm not strutting any ego at all. I'm not the one trying to make out from the comfort of a nice warm armchair that it could all have been done by a 3 month trainee chimp in a sort of sail it by numbers computer game.


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Now seriously there is still a chance to set a record by sailing a remotely (satellite) controlled vessel around the world? It has never been done yet, has it?

Would be interesting to see if this would be possible or if it would break, making the need for a human sailor onboard more obvious...
 
Re: Golfin technology analogy

I had a Liz 31 called Lizelle for 12 years.. You cannot be all bad.

The problem is that whilst we all have a right to make any comment in the world, about anything, that also includes commenting on people who try, but dismally, fail to denigrate an achievement.

Criticism and denigration of any achievement is so easy - so sad. The people who seek to denigrate are even more pathetic if they purport to love the sea, sailing and adventure.

What is wrong with just saying - a wonderful achievement -
 
Re: Golfin technology analogy

Disagree. I do'nt detect criticism. All concerned are saying how they admire the grit determination etc etc etc but progress is looking to the next summit. EG in a mountaineering context the ascent of Everest using seige tactics and oxygen was a great acheivement, now however it has been solo climbed without oxygen. Presumably ANOTHER challenge is an unaided RTW?
 
Re: Golfin technology analogy

Aha .. was trying to avoid doing that!! Perhaps with no external human help once the start line has been passed?
 
Re: Golfin technology analogy

<The problem is that whilst we all have a right to make any comment in the world, about anything, that also includes commenting on people who try, but dismally, fail to denigrate an achievement.>

Who could disagree with you about the right of free speech? But I think that making personal, abusive comments actually inhibits free speech because no one likes to stick his head above the parapet. I would have thought that controversial views (not trolls) are the lifeblood of forums and should be encouraged. Wouldn't life be boring if we all agreed with each other?

Topically - go for the ball and not the man - anything else is a foul.

I happen to think her achievement was pretty outstanding by any standards and I can quite happily leave it there but I welcome the fact that others can't.
 
View from down under might be....

....different if Ellen was a Kiwi? Thing is here sailing of any kind is completely ignored under normal circumstances by all the media, except in terms of the 'rich at play' type comments at Boat Show times, whereas in your neck of the woods where the bathwater goes backwards down the plughole, everyone is interested I believe, pretty well as they are in France. So when we in the UK get some REAL achievements that the media cannot ignore then, like the Olympics, The Vendee (OK 3rd 'only') and of course Ellen I think it is very reasonable that we should shout it from the roof tops.

I hope Alec will not take it too personally that I (and many others) waded in, but a title post of Hero or Stunt Act is pretty provocative and especially so (and non -UK folks will not have seen this) because there have been some inane comments in some newspapers, chat shows and Letters pages. We have a very bad habit in the UK of knocking our most succesful sports people be they golfers, footballers rugby players footballers or sailors - WHY?

Robin
 
Re: View from down under might be....

it is quite right that she becomes a Dame, and that it is v spesh etc etc.

But, i think, the "knocking" of these achievers isn't *actually* "at them" so much as at people who would laud their achievements as the very greatest possible, such that Beckam is easily the best footballer of his generation for example, and/or that Ellen is a peerless sailor the kind of which has not been seen for 400 years since Cook or Drake or Nelson and so on. I think we brits get a bit uincomfortable at this sort of almost american "instant filmstar" style of hero worship, and with a much broader sense of history, we tend to say "well, hang on a minute"....

The fact remains that ellen is a world record holder, which is ace. England won the footie cup in 66, the rugby in 2003, wassername kelly holmes won the 800 and 1500 at the lympics and all that's great too, and about the same sort of achievement, imho.

But some of the hyperbolae for ellen were along the lines of hero worship (which didn't happen for kelly holmes frexample) and some may need to see more evidence of true "greatness" - which may yet come - before saying well yeah, actualy that is beyond the one-off winning of a world cup, or a championship, or a world record. Even then it's a sport, not pushing back the limits of human knowledge: perhaps such achievements don't really exist any more in some activities, and may be sailing has already reached that level of "sport" rather than "voyage into the unknown".

For me, this isn't to denigrate at all, merely to put into context. No way wd i or most sane people attempt records on B+Q and ESPECIALLY i wdn't try that boat on the norfiolk broads! - who on earth would suggest that eh? :-)
 
Re: View from down under might be....

Just for a laugh, I googled 'Athletics Forum', got the IAAF forum page and guess what... exactly the same debate was there post-Olympics on Kelly Holmes, as the yottie arguments about Ellen. 'Kelly's the greatest' 'No, she's not Olympic Golds are easier than World Records', 'there was a woman who was World Champ in 1932 with running spikes screwed into her bare feet', 'Oh yes Kelly bloody well is the greatest', etc. And you can imagine the love/hate posts for Paula 'Blimey its a bit hot in Athens' Radcliffe. Nice to see consistency across the sporting world...
 
Well done, alec!

You have just done the equivalent of poking a stick into a wasp's nest, but you do raise a valid point.
 
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