Electricians - House not boat

Hi Dave
Saw your reply after replying to Chrissie , if as it seems , you agree with me , perhaps you'd be good enough to withdraw your comment , or do you still think I'm a cowboy company
Dave ( confusingly )
 
Three points:

1. Don't click on that RS link! It's likely to close your YBW window! The problem seems to be that I had the RS site open under my account when I copied the URL, and it times out.

2. Your consumer unit looks like it uses standard DIN rails and MCBs. Are you sure that all the MCBs have circuits connected to them? I can understand the safety argument for having 2 lighting circuits for a stair, but if the power is only for vacuuming etc. I would have thought 2 socket rings a bit excessive. If one MCB is actually a spare then fitting the neat wee meter should be simplified.

3. That's a much more sensible price for an ordinary meter. If you go for this option stick a label on it saying something like "Private sub meter. Not for utility company billing." It should be obvious from both the cable configuration and the meter ownership label, but given the industry's general de-skilling (see one of my other posts) there's always the possibility of someone getting confused...
 
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2. Your consumer unit looks like it uses standard DIN rails and MCBs. Are you sure that all the MCBs have circuits connected to them? I can understand the safety argument for having 2 lighting circuits for a stair, but if the power is only for vacuuming etc. I would have thought 2 socket rings a bit excessive. If one MCB is actually a spare then fitting the neat wee meter should be simplified.

The unit supplies:

1) Internal Lighting

2) External Lighting

3) Sockets

4) Plug sockets for CCTV camera and aerial booster

Not sure they are all on separate ways... I guess I could take the cover off and have a look... promise I wont rewire anything.

Does the RS gizmo just plug in or does it need a bit of wiring.. looks like the latter, but if it works, it's just the job.

Thanks again for the help.
 
If you read the order of the thread carefully I think it should be clearer. I stand by my comment about cowboy sparks "just pulling the fuse". You'll see that you made that comment before explaining anything about your difficulties, your efforts to "follow the book", and compromise solutions reached. In the context of all that had been posted up to that point, there was nothing to indicate that your recommendation to "just pull the fuse" was anything other than your preferred approach - which is exactly how a cowboy operates.

There have always been irresponsible individuals who broke the rules, even when the Supply Industry was properly staffed up and reasonably efficient. One of the consequences of leaving the cut out unsealed was that when this was discovered at the next meter reading, a "possible tampering" marker was placed on the customer's billing record. This could give the customer problems long after the spark had gone.

So, in summary, I continue to regard the spark who routinely and recklessly breaks seals as a cowboy.

For the proper trades(wo)man, trying his/her damnest to work compliantly and properly while dealing with an increasingly inefficient Supply Industry, I have, as I said, every sympathy. If (s)he can effect properly agreed - and recorded (see point above about suspicions of tampering) - safe, practical solutions which circumvent some of the difficulties, then I would certainly not think of him or her as a cowboy.

So, if you operate consistently in the latter fashion, I unreservedly withdraw any suggestion that you are a cowboy.
 
I do see your point , and yes I do notify the electricity board of my intentions so it's all recorded . They are notified as soon as I know that the job is going to require a power down and they're always asked if they will be able to do it , to which they have never said yes and I've always been told to go ahead
 
Chrissie,

It is a different set of circumstances. Richard is asking about his house wiring which he owns. Your experience was with your supply cable which is part of the distribution system which is (usually) owned by the Distribution Network Operator (DNO). To de-energise part of the distribution network usually involves loss of supply to other customers. Deliberate interruptions must be notified to all affected.

ScottishPower is presumably your Electricity Supplier but, unless I am completely wrong about your location, is unlikely to be the DNO. The DNO will not take any instructions for work from customers, only Suppliers. (This is all part of the wonderful world of Competition... )
 
and the sooner it ends the better off we'll all be , there's enough rules to control the cowboys without ones that make it harder for customers and those trying to do the job properly

but then we move onto the consultation document re the 17th edition
 
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We've got away with it so far mainly because of the solid foundations put in place by the boring old nationalised industry, which of course was largely run by engineers, not bean counters. The luck won't last forever though.

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Totaly agree and not just for the lecy ....
 
The electricity supplier recently decided that my meter should be changed. I installed a 150A switch, with tails long enough to reach the meter and my consumer unit. When the meter was changed, instead of connecting the old tails the new tails were connected, leaving me with a new main switch, separate from the consumer unit. Means I can play with the consumer unit without having to touch the main fuse. Works well, and didn't cost much.
 
1, 2 and 3 make sense - particularly if the internal lights are distributed between 1 and 2 so a single breaker trip doesn't plunge the whole stair into darkness. 4. had me puzzled for a bit - then I realised that a dedicated MCB might have been chosen to give the maximum protection against nuisance tripping. Thinking about it a bit more, losing the door entry at a time when your flat was unoccupied would, presumably, be a bit awkward! Following all of the above reasoning through, it would be difficult to combine circuits without some reduction in security. That said, as currently arranged things aren't ideal, since if someone plugs in a hoover with an earth fault then the RCD will trip and you'll lose sockets, lights, and door entry!

An alternative approach to make room for a meter would be to get a bigger consumer unit. This would also allow you to improve security, either by restricting earth fault protection to the sockets only, or introducing discrimination: 100mA at the incomer then 30mA for the sockets. Using a combined RCD/MCB unit for the sockets would avoid the expense and size of a double busbar consumer unit. (The now redundant consumer unit with its 40mA RCD would be a very good start towards a boat shorepower unit!)

The clip on meter does need wired in, but the connections are straightforward. The RS site gives links to the data sheet which shows everything, but basically it's

Ni, No
Li, Lo

There's also two smaller terminals which can be used for taking out pulses if you want to analyse consumption, but you can ignore these.

Now, having designed an improved consumer unit for common entry services complete with an integral meter, does anyone think there would be a market for such things? My thought was to sell the unit assembled, wired up and labelled, ready to be wired to the circuits without the electrician having to carry out any other internal work. Haven't costed it yet, but top of the head say £200?
 
Oih you stirring git ,, trying to put me out of work or something /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif not a bad idea but it'll never catch on /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif where have I heard that before
 
Difficult to see how the 1998 upheaval can be reversed in any sensible timescale.

The legislation was pushed through for entirely dogmatic reasons: Competition good, Monopoly bad. Customers have the "benefit" of choosing their Supplier and indeed many have switched and saved a few bob - the first time: subsequent switches save much less. Reducing prices were trumpeted as justifying the whole exercise - conveniently overlooking the fact that countries without Supply Competition were at that time experiencing faster falls. How could this possibly be?

Well, other than the fact that wholesale price - mainly fuel - is a much stronger driver of retail price than Supplier choice, one factor kept remarkably quiet was the cost of setting up the incredibly complex infrastructure needed to make the whole Supply Competition edifice work: registration, settlement, data collection and all the rest. £1000M was admitted, but most in the industry think the real cost was at least three times that, and money is still being spent to make more of the bits work properly.

(That sort of money could, for comparison, have built a couple of serious sized base load nuclear power stations. If it had been electricity prices would now be lower and we would be much less worried about the Russians turning off the gas tap.)

The ultimate absurdity is that the UK managed to persuade the EU that the UK's Supplier Competition model should be the European norm, and EU legislation to that effect was passed. Other EU countries now have Supply Competition or are progressing towards it (not very fast, admittedly, in the case of the usual suspects). This means that even if in the UK there is a complete change of political heart and the system becomes universally detested, we won't be allowed to abandon it because we'd be in breach of EU Directives!
 
doesn't improve at all does it , if they can't make a decision that affects only the British Isles without involving the EU I don't hold out much hope for any of us , the whole issue of part P was a bodge and everything to do with just about everything is being legislated about in consultation with the EU , , we don't really stand a chance until someone stands up and starts saying no , but that isn't going to happen
 
To be fair, they legislated in the UK first then persuaded the EU that it was a great idea. To make European Markets more competitive, you understand, and not just so that other EU countries would be forced to waste as much money as we did...

And don't get me started on Part P! I rather resent the fact that I'm no longer allowed to legally carry out minor domestic wiring without getting myself "certified", though admittedly as I get older it's increasingly convenient. "Oh I'd love to give you a hand (and crawl under your floors and through your roof trusses) but I can't. New legislation, see. Right nuisance..."
 
you're welcome to give a hand any time you like , but the stupid part is that I'd have to check your work before I could sighn it off ,,,,,,,, my electronics qualifications mean that I'm supposed to be able to take things apart with bare teath and get them working again with a blindfold on ,,,,,,, bits of paper , nothing more , nothing less ,,,,,,,,, but thankfully I still know what I'm doing when it comes to domestic and commercial ,,,,,,,,,, oh , and marine , to keep this boaty
 
They didn't charge me, but I bought the switch and heavy duty cable for the tails. That's my side of the meter, so I pay. They made the connection without charge.
 
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If your common area consumer unit is a modern type with MCBs clipped on to a DIN rail, and it has a spare way, you might want to consider fitting a modular kWh meter. RS part number 621-7147 is the beastie.

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Dave,

Thought I'd check ebay and found these:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/DIGITAL-WATTMETER-...1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Wattmeter-Energy-c...VQQcmdZViewItem

Would either of these be OK, or should I pay over double for the RS one.

Dont mind paying for quality, but dont see the point if it's not necessary.

many Thanks

Richard
 
They seem to be OK; both CE marked and 1% accuracy - perfectly adequate for your application, but not in fact "the highest accuracy class" as one seller fondly imagines! I'm a bit puzzled by the statement in the second meter's description: "A diode was ïntegreted protecting against false connections (parallel)" - it probably doesn't translate well from the German - but I don't suppose it's terribly important.

I might buy one or two of these myself; I bought a RS unit a couple of weeks ago at over £57 inc VAT for a one-off, so these are certainly cheaper! Good luck.
 
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