Electrical wiring for beginners

[coopec]

Jonathan

Lots of dreamers here who have never achieved anything but they can hide behind their keyboard and make snide SA comments.

When I installed the solar panels I followed this wiring diagram (But I have no DC load) AND I have a Starting Bank and a House Bank. (I directed the solar charge to either the House Bank or Starting Bank using a switch)

Then I decided to do away with the switch and use a Battery Combiner (VSR). I think that is where I have screwed up. I will get it sorted out but I don't consider it a priority.

 

[jac]

Jonathan

Lots of dreamers here who have never achieved anything but they can hide behind their keyboard and make snide SA comments.

When I installed the solar panels I followed this wiring diagram (But I have no DC load) AND I have a Starting Bank and a House Bank. (I directed the solar charge to either the House Bank or Starting Bank using a switch)

Then I decided to do away with the switch and use a Battery Combiner (VSR). I think that is where I have screwed up. I will get it sorted out but I don't consider it a priority.

That looks like a diagram suitable for an off grid house - not a boat.

Google is a great resource but it’s very easy to latch onto the first “answer “ even if it maybe sub optimal.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Jonathan

Lots of dreamers here who have never achieved anything but they can hide behind their keyboard and make snide SA comments.

When I installed the solar panels I followed this wiring diagram (But I have no DC load) AND I have a Starting Bank and a House Bank. (I directed the solar charge to either the House Bank or Starting Bank using a switch)

Then I decided to do away with the switch and use a Battery Combiner (VSR). I think that is where I have screwed up. I will get it sorted out but I don't consider it a priority.

The diagram doesn't show where your isolator switch is, where the loads are connected, where the solar controller is connected or where the VSR is connected.

The VSR and solar controller should both be connected to the battery side of the isolator, so the solar power charges the batteries irrespective of whether the isolator is on or off. All loads (except permanently on loads) should be after the isolator.

If your solar panels are able to power loads while the isolator is off, it's likely the controller is wired to the load side of the isolator, which would mean your batteries don't get charged when the isolator is off.

 

[coopec]

The diagram doesn't show where your isolator switch is, where the loads are connected, where the solar controller is connected or where the VSR is connected.

The VSR and solar controller should both be connected to the battery side of the isolator, so the solar power charges the batteries irrespective of whether the isolator is on or off. All loads (except permanently on loads) should be after the isolator.

If your solar panels are able to power loads while the isolator is off, it's likely the controller is wired to the load side of the isolator, which would mean your batteries don't get charged when the isolator is off.

Thanks for those comments - you've given me a check list of things to look at.

I can say the batteries are getting charged when the isolator is OFF. But I won't try to answer your other queries now as the yacht is 200kms away and I will need 10-15 minutes to examine what you have suggested. Thanks

 

[coopec]

That looks like a diagram suitable for an off grid house - not a boat.

Google is a great resource but it’s very easy to latch onto the first “answer “ even if it maybe sub optimal.

Well you're the expert: what's the difference? Now, if you bother to reply let's not get too technical as I will get very confused.

 

[Tranona]

The main difference is that the house system is powering the DC loads (likely to be very small!) directly from solar, presumably through a distribution panel if more than one circuit and the AC from solar via a holding battery and an inverter.

Not very useful on a boat which runs mainly on DC charged from a variety of sources - engine alternator, solar, wind, mains shorepower using at least 2 independent 12 (or 24)V battery banks as storage - one for engine and one for "house", plus for some another bank for windlass, bow thruster, deck wash etc. As Paul said, charge from all sources goes into the battery(ies) then to each user via an isolation switch. That way charge from solar goes to batteries independent of whether the load circuits are on or off. When your house bank is off the lights should not work.

 

[jac]

Well you're the expert: what's the difference? Now, if you bother to reply let's not get too technical as I will get very confused.

Ok to keep it simple - Houses and Boats are almost the mirror image of each other.

Boats use mainly DC with the occasional AC load powered via an inverter. My own boat has no inverter - just shore power for AC

Houses use mainly AC for all appliances Whilst my house has some USB charging sockets these are connected to AC - I have no DC cabling.

 

[coopec]

Ok to keep it simple - Houses and Boats are almost the mirror image of each other.

Boats use mainly DC with the occasional AC load powered via an inverter. My own boat has no inverter - just shore power for AC

Houses use mainly AC for all appliances Whilst my house has some USB charging sockets these are connected to AC - I have no DC cabling.

So your house is "off grid" using solar panels to charge batteries?

"Houses use mainly AC for all appliances Whilst my house has some USB charging sockets these are connected to AC - I have no DC cabling."

You must have DC cabling from your solar panels to the batteries?

"That looks like a diagram suitable for an off grid house - not a boat."

Why? Why isn't the circuit diagram suitable for a boat? (Please explain)

Really! (I think I'll stick to "googling"!)

 

[Alex_Blackwood]

So your house is "off grid" using solar panels to charge batteries?

"Houses use mainly AC for all appliances Whilst my house has some USB charging sockets these are connected to AC - I have no DC cabling."

You must have DC cabling from your solar panels to the batteries?

"That looks like a diagram suitable for an off grid house - not a boat."

Why? Why isn't the circuit diagram suitable for a boat? (Please explain)

Really! (I think I'll stick to "googling"!)

What you have shown is exactly what it says on the box. Basic off Grid system. It is only an illustration, not an installation or connection diagram. If you chose to use it as an installation diagram, your problem!
To add to what others have said. It is a house system where in the illustration the battery acts as a basic Uninterruptable Power Supply (UPS) The source of power is the solar and the battery is solely backup. It does not show any of the switches or safety devices associated with such systems, apart from battery fuses.
A boat system has the battery as the source of power with the charging systems, including solar as back up. The connection and switching arrangements are different. Whether you install an inverter on the boat for ac. is optional.
That is about as simple as I can get it.
In this case the fault is not "GOOGLE'S" but the interpretation of what is seen, without the knowledge to know better. That is not meant harshly, we all have different expertise. Good luck with your boat! Don't be afraid to get professional advice when needed.
As for being an armchair critic. With nearly 70 years in the trade I find it the most comfortable place!

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Basically, there are some things that you do want to be powered when you leave the boat, and a lot you don't.

Normally they are ...

1. Consumers you want to disconnect from power when away from the boat (e.g. Plotter, VHF, Instruments etc.) to prevent discharge of the batteries.
2. Consumers you do not want to disconnect from power (e.g. Auto bilge pump, Tracker, GSM device for remote access and monitoring).

There should always be a means to disconnect the batteries from everything on top of these requirements.

So a system usually ends up with multiple master ON/OFF switches.

Solar falls into the second category IMO. If you have specified your solar system correctly it will provide enough power, even in winter, to keep the batteries fully charged, cover it's own power requirements and run all the consumers you do not want to switch off. That is how I wired my boat.

On leaving the boat, you would switch off the unwanted consumers and leave the rest, including the solar, switched on and connected to the batteries.

To take this further, a Lithium BMS may also have two outputs, ATC (Allow To Charge) and ATD (Allow To Discharge) ... these can be used to control devices such as Solar Chargers, Battery Protectors, and other loads that need to be controlled in specific circumstances.

I usually go to the Victrom Schematics page for inspiration ... there is a large collection of well laid out schematics showing the wiring required for the Victron Portfolio of products ...

System schematics - Victron Energy

I would suggest looking here for details and examples. If you can't follow it all, or it looks a bit daunting, no problem, employ a professional.

 

[jac]

So your house is "off grid" using solar panels to charge batteries?

"Houses use mainly AC for all appliances Whilst my house has some USB charging sockets these are connected to AC - I have no DC cabling."

You must have DC cabling from your solar panels to the batteries?

"That looks like a diagram suitable for an off grid house - not a boat."

Why? Why isn't the circuit diagram suitable for a boat? (Please explain)

Really! (I think I'll stick to "googling"!)

No my house is on the grid. - That means it's connected to the Uk power grid.

And therefore no DC cabling in my house ( Except for things like USB to lightning connectors when i charge an Iphone)

And i have already explained why it is not suitable - as has Tranona.

Houses use AC electricity for virtually everything - Boats use DC for virtually everything.

In that diagram the Battery acts as a buffer enabling smooth supply of power to the AC loads. There is no such support for the DC loads. Thats fine if all you're doing is charging up tablets & phones. They have their own batteries so will continue operating.

Use that on a boat and your lights, electronics etc will only come on when the sun is out.

 

[coopec]

Basically, there are some things that you do want to be powered when you leave the boat, and a lot you don't.

Normally they are ...

1. Consumers you want to disconnect from power when away from the boat (e.g. Plotter, VHF, Instruments etc.) to prevent discharge of the batteries.
2. Consumers you do not want to disconnect from power (e.g. Auto bilge pump, Tracker, GSM device for remote access and monitoring).

There should always be a means to disconnect the batteries from everything on top of these requirements.

So a system usually ends up with multiple master ON/OFF switches.

Solar falls into the second category IMO. If you have specified your solar system correctly it will provide enough power, even in winter, to keep the batteries fully charged, cover it's own power requirements and run all the consumers you do not want to switch off. That is how I wired my boat.

On leaving the boat, you would switch off the unwanted consumers and leave the rest, including the solar, switched on and connected to the batteries.

To take this further, a Lithium BMS may also have two outputs, ATC (Allow To Charge) and ATD (Allow To Discharge) ... these can be used to control devices such as Solar Chargers, Battery Protectors, and other loads that need to be controlled in specific circumstances.

I usually go to the Victrom Schematics page for inspiration ... there is a large collection of well laid out schematics showing the wiring required for the Victron Portfolio of products ...

System schematics - Victron Energy

I would suggest looking here for details and examples. If you can't follow it all, or it looks a bit daunting, no problem, employ a professional.

I'm not sure who you were directing your advice to (but I assume it was me)

But:

• I have battery terminal switches.
• The three bilge pumps will never be switched off. (always have power)
• The navigational lights will always have power.
• The 300A(?) master switch switches everything else off. (including the winch)
• The battery starter switch is 600A ? (can't remember)
• The anchor winch is switched and has a circuit breaker.
• The solar panels certainly keep the battery charged and when I have had a heavy draw on the batteries they are quickly re-charged by the solar panels (But I am located in Australia!)

The yacht has now undergone a Marine Survey (but only from a safety point of view) Of course the cabling (and cable ducting), and electrical connections, fusing, switches were part of the survey.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I'm not sure who you were directing your advice to (but I assume it was me)

But:

• I have battery terminal switches.
• The three bilge pumps will never be switched off.(always have power)
• The navigational lights will always have power.
• The 300A(?) master switch switches everything else off. (including the winch)
• The anchor winch is switched and has a circuit breaker.
• The solar panels certainly keep the battery charged and when I have had a heavy draw on the batteries they are quickly re-charged by the solar panels (But I am located in Australia!)

The yacht has now undergone a Marine Survey (but only from a safety point of view) Of course the cabling (and cable ducting), and electrical connections, fusing, switches were part of the survey.

Wasn't directed at you, just an addition to the general discussion. Don't know enough about your installation to comment or pass judgement.

 

[coopec]

Wasn't directed at you, just an addition to the general discussion. Don't know enough about your installation to comment or pass judgement.

Thanks anyway.

It is good to get feedback from someone who knows his onions. (A pleasant change from the armchair expert drivel)

 

[Tranona]

I'm not sure who you were directing your advice to (but I assume it was me)

But:

• I have battery terminal switches.
• The three bilge pumps will never be switched off. (always have power)
• The navigational lights will always have power.
• The 300A(?) master switch switches everything else off. (including the winch)
• The battery starter switch is 600A ? (can't remember)
• The anchor winch is switched and has a circuit breaker.
• The solar panels certainly keep the battery charged and when I have had a heavy draw on the batteries they are quickly re-charged by the solar panels (But I am located in Australia!)

The yacht has now undergone a Marine Survey (but only from a safety point of view) Of course the cabling (and cable ducting), and electrical connections, fusing, switches were part of the survey.

You seem to confuse basic principles with the way you operationalise them. Not helped by the sometimes confusing terminology you use. For example what do you term a "master" switch. Does that isolate all batteries from all loads? How is that different from your "battery starter switch? Does your winch have its own battery? or if it shares another battery is the switch before or after the master switch?

Switching and managing loads is nothing to do with solar panels - they are charging sources along with wind, mains charging and the alternator on the engine. They feed the batteries and have their own controls.

So I fail to see how your interior lights can be powered by solar if your "master" switch is off as you claim it switches everything off. What about your "always on" items like bilge pumps. Are they off when your master switch is off.

The schematic you posted for an off grid solar powered system is irrelevant for the reasons stated earlier. Note it is a schematic NOT a wiring diagram for the complete system, If you changed that schematic to remove the inverter and moved the DC circuits to the battery you would have a simple schematic for a boat. However to make it into one more representative of a boat you would add additional sources of charge like the alternator, mains charger, and maybe 2 or three different battery banks for different DC loads, for example engine, domestic,, winch all of which might have their own isolators. not all banks will necessarily be charged by all the charge sources.

Your response in post#10 suggests you don't have a good grasp of the principles of your electrical system at a basic level - and googling won't help you except to direct you to books etc that do have workable schematics of boat electrical systems. Even then you need to look at your own to determine how the principles have been operationalised if only because that process opens up another level of choices!

 

[Alex_Blackwood]

You seem to confuse basic principles with the way you operationalise them. Not helped by the sometimes confusing terminology you use. For example what do you term a "master" switch. Does that isolate all batteries from all loads? How is that different from your "battery starter switch? Does your winch have its own battery? or if it shares another battery is the switch before or after the master switch?

Switching and managing loads is nothing to do with solar panels - they are charging sources along with wind, mains charging and the alternator on the engine. They feed the batteries and have their own controls.

So I fail to see how your interior lights can be powered by solar if your "master" switch is off as you claim it switches everything off. What about your "always on" items like bilge pumps. Are they off when your master switch is off.

The schematic you posted for an off grid solar powered system is irrelevant for the reasons stated earlier. Note it is a schematic NOT a wiring diagram for the complete system, If you changed that schematic to remove the inverter and the DC circuits to the battery you would have a simple schematic for a boat. However to make it into one more representative of a boat you would add additional sources of charge like the alternator, mains charger, and maybe 2 or three different battery banks for different DC loads, for example engine, domestic,, winch all of which might have their own isolators. not all banks will necessarily be charged by all the charge sources.

Your response in post#10 suggests you don't have a good grasp of the principles of your electrical system at a basic level - and googling won't help you except to direct you to books etc that do have workable schematics of boat electrical systems. Even then you need to look at your own to determine how the principles have been operationalised if only because that process opens up another level of choices!

Careful, you may be accused of drivel!

 

[DangerousPirate]

I'd rather trust chatgpt than youtube

 

[PaulRainbow]

Thanks anyway.

It is good to get feedback from someone who knows his onions. (A pleasant change from the armchair expert drivel)

Is it at all possible for you to post in a thread without being rude ?

Thought not.

 

[Tranona]

Careful, you may be accused of drivel!

Yes, but good qua;ity.

 

[coopec]

Well the Marine Surveyor has had a good look at what I have done and he is happy and that is what matters!

I want to fix the lights pulsing but thinking about it (after reading Paul's comment) it is only a 5 minute job.