Electrical/electronics - do battery chargers go senile?

[Amulet]

The attachment shows a sheet which was delivered with some new batteries. It says that your oh-so-clever battery charger will simply deteriorate over time. I am one of the naive ones it is aimed at. I assumed that my Sterling charger which is 10 years old was good as new. It seems to be performing OK in terms of shown voltage and current, though my new batteries aren't as much of an improvement as I hoped. Is this dogma to be believed?

 

[Richard10002]

As sellers of battery's and battery chargers, they are obviously trying to sell you a new charger. I would have thought that most here will have some kind of monitoring system and will know volts and amps and, if the volts and amps are OK, the charger is fine.

 

[capetown]

Well my reassuringly expensive ctek died 18 months ago.
Whereas my cheapo medion from Aldi or lidl
Both the same vintage is still okay.

 

[ghostlymoron]

I've got an Aldi 3.8a charger (badged Tronic but looks very similar to Cteck) bought in 2009. It seems alright but won't start to charge batteries that are very low. I have to kick start them with my ancient, unsmart halfords model for a bit then switch to the smart Aldi one which then charges it fully and switches to trickle (I assume).

 

[Hydrozoan]

The attachment shows a sheet which was delivered with some new batteries. It says that your oh-so-clever battery charger will simply deteriorate over time. I am one of the naive ones it is aimed at. I assumed that my Sterling charger which is 10 years old was good as new. It seems to be performing OK in terms of shown voltage and current, though my new batteries aren't as much of an improvement as I hoped. Is this dogma to be believed?

I recently got the same sheet with a new battery - presumably from the same supplier - and also have a Sterling charger of similar vintage to yours!

I'm sure that chargers like anything else do deteriorate over time, but mine seems to be functioning fine. I just took the sheet as a reminder that all things are mortal - and sure, they are advising that they also do charger testing, and supply chargers, but perhaps they've also found that people do sometimes buy new batteries and don't get the performance boost they expect because their charger is no longer performing correctly. Anyway, I shall just keep an eye on battery and charger voltages in relation to usage and charge cycle. (And by the way, I did check that the charger's internal settings were what they should be for the battery type when I changed the battery, just to make sure I didn't get it wrong all those years ago.)

 

[Bru]

My initial reaction was "that's hogwash "

I've thought about it and I still think it's hogwash

Unless the charger develops a fault I can't think of any plausible reason for a modern electronically controlled charger to become less efficient simply due to the passage of time

Unless someone knows better... :-S

 

[Beyondhelp]

My initial reaction was "that's hogwash "

I've thought about it and I still think it's hogwash

Unless the charger develops a fault I can't think of any plausible reason for a modern electronically controlled charger to become less efficient simply due to the passage of time

Unless someone knows better... :-S

Totally agree. What a load of utter nonsense. If its used in accordance with its design, then a slowly failing charger... I think NOT. Point 1 is simply FALSE, silicone (as in the electronic chip types) are incredibly reliable, packaged in very rugged plastic cases, and will often out last the components around it. Pretty much the only real failure of components are capacitors drying out and thus that can cause problems but again, in most cases these will last many years, unless not really up to the job in the first place.

Points 2,3 only apply to misuse.. unless the charger was designed for that environment then again no problem.

 

[William_H]

I am amazed that a proffessional organisation would write and publish such rubbish. Modern electronics are very reliable and certainly don't deteriorate. They might die from failure of a component but not gradually. Consider your mobile phone on 24/7. Much more complicated than a charger and mostly very reliable despite its hard knocks environment.
Spread this tripe far and wide as rubbish and bring this charlaton to heel. We are not as stupid as he thinks olewill

 

[cliff]

My initial reaction was "that's hogwash "
I've thought about it and I still think it's hogwash
Unless the charger develops a fault I can't think of any plausible reason for a modern electronically controlled charger to become less efficient simply due to the passage of time
Unless someone knows better... :-S

theIEEE seem to know better and I for one would put my trust in that organisation rather than your opinion
http://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/processors/transistor-aging

Totally agree. What a load of utter nonsense. If its used in accordance with its design, then a slowly failing charger... I think NOT. Point 1 is simply FALSE, silicone (as in the electronic chip types) are incredibly reliable, packaged in very rugged plastic cases, and will often out last the components around it. Pretty much the only real failure of components are capacitors drying out and thus that can cause problems but again, in most cases these will last many years, unless not really up to the job in the first place.
Points 2,3 only apply to misuse.. unless the charger was designed for that environment then again no problem.

Agreed the document is poorly written

I am amazed that a proffessional organisation would write and publish such rubbish. Modern electronics are very reliable and certainly don't deteriorate. They might die from failure of a component but not gradually. Consider your mobile phone on 24/7. Much more complicated than a charger and mostly very reliable despite its hard knocks environment.
Spread this tripe far and wide as rubbish and bring this charlaton to heel. We are not as stupid as he thinks olewill

I am amazed you cannot spell "professional" or "charlatan" but hey-ho, what the hell... BTY read this http://blog.asset-intertech.com/test_data_out/2013/08/silicon-aging-and-signal-integrity.html then consider retracting your misinformation - seems that while modern electronics are very reliable they do actually deteriorate over time - see the link above to the IEEE

 

[Bru]

theIEEE seem to know better and I for one would put my trust in that organisation rather than your opinion
http://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/processors/transistor-aging

Hang on, you're talking about performance degradation of the switching speed of semi-conductor junctions in microprocessors. A performance degradation that the article in question itself acknowledges you'll probably never even notice

To equate that to the idea that battery management systems will degrade over time is nonsense

Even if (and out probably will) the charger /controller contains a microprocessor the degradation highlighted in the IEEE article does not equate to a reduction in performance or function of the whole unit (for that to happen the semiconductors would have to be running at 100% and the reduction in processing speed would have to affect the performance which isn't necessarily going to be the case)

I'm reading this and replying on the mobile with limited access to the linked documents so I will have a better look later but for now I stand by my earlier statement that it's a load of cobblers

 

[cliff]

Hang on, you're talking about performance degradation of the switching speed of semi-conductor junctions in microprocessors. A performance degradation that the article in question itself acknowledges you'll probably never even notice

To equate that to the idea that battery management systems will degrade over time is nonsense

Even if (and out probably will) the charger /controller contains a microprocessor the degradation highlighted in the IEEE article does not equate to a reduction in performance or function of the whole unit (for that to happen the semiconductors would have to be running at 100% and the reduction in processing speed would have to affect the performance which isn't necessarily going to be the case)

I'm reading this and replying on the mobile with limited access to the linked documents so I will have a better look later but for now I stand by my earlier statement that it's a load of cobblers

As I said the original document is badly written - more like scare-mongering for the gormless however to state that modern electronics do not degrade over time is incorrect - I have a transceiver which I had to have some chips changed out as they had "degraded" over their 20 year life . New chips and like a new unit (except it is not available these days). I have also had a number of ICs fail under normal conditions after 4~5 years but others still going strong after 20 years - Why some early failures manufacturing defects? built down to a price? ambient conditions? simple bad luck?
Who can say? but chips do deteriorate over time (maybe a long time)

 

[nigelmercier]

It of course depends on the design, but certainly some components (notably electrolytic capacitors) will gradually fail.

 

[Bru]

It of course depends on the design, but certainly some components (notably electrolytic capacitors) will gradually fail.

Exactly. However, the word, critically, is "fail".

Cliff - at no point did I say that electronic components do not degrade over time.

What I said is that the claims in the original attachment are hogwash and hogwash they most certainly are. The claimed cause is genuine in that yes, components in electronic circuits are degraded by heat and moisture (who'd've thought huh?), the claimed effect that this causes apparently serviceable chargers to need replacing is false as presented

There may be some very good arguments for replacing older charging systems by the way (the latest technology is a marked improvement on older equipment) but the OP's attachment is fit for one purpose and one purpose only

 

[lw395]

I've certainly seen lots of power supplies go out of spec after a few years use.
Including the one I use as a float charger for my motorbike.
That was an electrolytic capacitor failing, it still 'worked' but the ripple voltage was a lot more.

So some truth, but not a great article.

 

[Hydrozoan]

... the claimed effect that this causes apparently serviceable [my bold] chargers to need replacing is false as presented ...

I think "apparently serviceable" is the issue (as outright failure is not taken as 'deterioration'). Voltage sensing/regulating systems can fail in such a way that a charger may appear at a glance to be operating normally, yet not be performing the correct charging cycle - with potentially deleterious effects on batteries.

 

[Bru]

I think "apparently serviceable" is the issue (as outright failure is not taken as 'deterioration'). Voltage sensing/regulating systems can fail in such a way that a charger may appear at a glance to be operating normally, yet not be performing the correct charging cycle - with potentially deleterious effects on batteries.

Hmm. I'll accept that it's theoretically possible but I've never actually come across it happening!

 

[Hydrozoan]

Hmm. I'll accept that it's theoretically possible but I've never actually come across it happening!

Neither have I. But then I don't see many multistage chargers, period - with or without problems. Golf cart charger timer/voltage sensor/controller boards do seem to be one of the causes of problems in that application, however.

 

[Bru]

I think perhaps what we have here is a difference in interpretation!

All the examples posted are of what I would call faulty equipment - kit that had either failed totally or is no longer operating within its specification

I interpret the bumph the OP posted as an attempt to imply that battery chargers routinely become less efficient over time through use and that assertion is what I take issue with

 

[lw395]

I think "apparently serviceable" is the issue (as outright failure is not taken as 'deterioration'). Voltage sensing/regulating systems can fail in such a way that a charger may appear at a glance to be operating normally, yet not be performing the correct charging cycle - with potentially deleterious effects on batteries.

My Dad's neighbour had a Clarke 'automatic' charger for his caravan battery which seemed to go through the motions of a charging cycle but didn't really charge the battery anywhere near full.
Whether that was age related or just dodgy from day one I couldn't say. He took some convincing that the battery was OK when we charged it properly.
Between a dodgy charger, a battery of unknown history and vintage, dubious wiring and a £3 multimeter it's sometimes hard to trust anything.

At least I can check my multimeters against calibrated ones.
The yellow Mastech ones are pretty good in my experience, unless they've actually been in the bilge water for a while!
But when you're going around in circles, check everything.

 

[Hydrozoan]

I think perhaps what we have here is a difference in interpretation!

All the examples posted are of what I would call faulty equipment - kit that had either failed totally or is no longer operating within its specification

I interpret the bumph the OP posted as an attempt to imply that battery chargers routinely become less efficient over time through use and that assertion is what I take issue with

Sure, it may just be a difference of interpretation - their wording is " ... so a battery charger's circuits lose their quality of control" or somesuch, which could mean a gradual process of deterioration of control, or a definite failure of cycle control short of a failure to charge at all. I don't know enough about golf cart chargers to be sure, but it does seem that they can be prone to partial failures of the latter kind. Anyway, IMO worth keeping an eye on the charging cycle and its voltages.