Elecsol batteries - are the claims for real?

[bluedragon]

This company makes some amazing claims for its leisure battery technology. So much so, that it seems to obsolete just about every other deep-discharge and leisure battery out there www.elecsolbatteries.com

I've read on other YBW threads that many users are very satisfied (though not always with the customer service), but are the specific claims vs. other battery types really justified (sulphation virtually eliminated, 1000 cycles, etc). Is this the wonder battery that we can run flat, leave, re-charge and do no damage? Because that's the way it reads to me. Is this too good to be true? Any battery engineers on the forum?

 

[Topcat47]

A little pricey. The deep cycle Carbon Batteries are about on a par with other traction batteries (I wonder what the weight differential is). Leisure batteries with a 5-year guarantee are also available elsewhere. I'm not sure I'd take a punt on them just yet.

Like you. I'd be interested in what a specialist might say on the subject.

 

[Plevier]

I had a technical role in a large lead acid battery company for some years but it was a good many years ago. I can't claim to be up to date in every detail.
The Elecsol website has very little real technical information on it to judge, some crass errors and impossible discharge curves.
On the other hand at a glance (I haven't compared carefully) their batteries seem pretty heavy - always a good thing for life, there is no substitute for lead! - and they are (a bit) lower than normal specific gravity at least in the wet ones, which reduces corrosion a bit. Normal design constraints make that less likely in their AGM batteries.
Do their AGM ones actually exist yet? The literature has lots of "we intend to" in it.
Running a credit check on them does not support claims of being a large producer. There are several very small linked companies and several CCJs and no up to date accounts. Do they manufacture themselves, does anyone on here happen to know?
So there is absolutely nothing there to give me any confidence and some of it is redolent of snake oil. I really don't know whether there is anything of note in their carbon fibre additive. I will read their patent when I have a bit of time and try to get more detail that way.
However I have nothing damning against them.
I guess the best guide has to be users, satisfied or otherwise. Do they stand by their 7 year warranty? They can probably afford to, they aren't cheap.

 

[Ceirwan]

I have an old one that was given to me, not sure how old it is, but it's completely knackered. I use it for my domestic which it seems to last fairly well at, but even though it shows good voltage it can't crank the engine, or even attempt to.
As I don't know how hard a life its had though I guess that not all that helpful!

 

[bluedragon]

One thing that bothers me a bit, is that the leisure batteries are completely sealed. If the electrolyte gets depleted by over-charging, then there's nothing you can do about it. But, I'm sure I read there is a recombinant technology to create water from the O2/H2 gassing! But I can't find that statement again for some reason.

Regarding weight, they claim to be lighter than other types for a given capacity.

 

[Plevier]

One thing that bothers me a bit, is that the leisure batteries are completely sealed. If the electrolyte gets depleted by over-charging, then there's nothing you can do about it. But, I'm sure I read there is a recombinant technology to create water from the O2/H2 gassing! But I can't find that statement again for some reason.

Regarding weight, they claim to be lighter than other types for a given capacity.

Don't confuse two terms.

"Sealed maintenance free" just means there is enough wet electrolyte in the battery to last its lifetime if charged within set limits. It's more of a marketing than technical concept. That normally means not using multi stage chargers - I don't know what Elecsol's specific conditions are. Usually you can find a way of topping these up if you need to, often just by removing a label and finding a filler strip underneath! You cannot have recombination in a flooded battery.

"Valve regulated lead acid" or "VRLA" or "AGM" or "AGR" or just "sealed lead acid" means a rather different construction and no free liquid. You can get almost 100% recombination, you have to be careful about charging conditions but you can still get fast charging.
Despite all the claims, I remain unconvinced about VRLA for deep cycling.

I'm not sure to which type you are referring.

I'll look again at the weight. My impression was that their wet ones are quite heavy. If you're talking VLRA they are always lighter than wet ones, do they just mean that?

 

[BGW]

This company makes some amazing claims for its leisure battery technology. So much so, that it seems to obsolete just about every other deep-discharge and leisure battery out there www.elecsolbatteries.com

I've read on other YBW threads that many users are very satisfied (though not always with the customer service), but are the specific claims vs. other battery types really justified (sulphation virtually eliminated, 1000 cycles, etc). Is this the wonder battery that we can run flat, leave, re-charge and do no damage? Because that's the way it reads to me. Is this too good to be true? Any battery engineers on the forum?

It's too early for me to comment from experience yet, but a few months ago I fitted 4 of the 250AH Carbon AGM batteries.
So far they have exceeded my expectations, but then I upgraded from 4 X 108AH batteries, so it's not a directly comparable situation.
It's worth pointing out to some of the posters, that Elecsol do two distinct ranges of batteries - the standard L/A leisure batteries, and the Carbon AGM type - and the specification and claims for each are quite different.
In terms of cost, yes they were expensive, but in cost per AH, no more expensive than the Vetus Deep Discharge batteries I had before, and that only lasted just over 2 seasons with regular 40 to 50% discharge cycles. (Yes, I now realise I should have bought cheaper standard LA batteries instead of the Vetus ones)
I hope that the combination of the bigger battery bank and the Carbon AGM construction will be a cost effective solution, but only time will tell.
I do give my batteries a hard life (inverter runs domestic fridge 24/7 when off shore power) and I have spent too many years trying to 'scrape by' on battery power to worry about the cost now. For me, worry free functionality is more important in this area.

 

[Plevier]

BGW

What is the small print around the warranty on the ones you have bought please - no of cycles, depth of discharge, charge voltage etc?

 

[BGW]

BGW
What is the small print around the warranty on the ones you have bought please - no of cycles, depth of discharge, charge voltage etc?

My bench mark was the 50% discharge cycle rate - which is a respectable 2,500 - but the graph show a range of 1,200 at 100% discharge to over 6,000 at 20% discharge.
They have a 7 year warranty.
With regard to charging they are rated at 14.2 to 14.4 and my sterling multi stage chargers at 28.8v (SLA setting for 24V system) is just at the upper end of this range, and was confirmed by the agent as being perfectly acceptable.
I also took the wiring example (all cable lengths matched) very seriously too - I wanted to replace the cables anyway.

 

[bluedragon]

Can I just say that my interest (and comments) relate to the leisure range. I didn't read the AGM info.

I definitely got the impression that the leisure batteries were well and truly sealed ("New sealed for life design"), but I might be wrong. I know that usually there is a way in to check and replenish water levels.

 

[sailor211]

I have two 110 ah, that have been installed 4 years now, and proving to be better than the average for my previous VATRA batteries that were changed under warranty.

Elecsol Battery seem happy with deep discharge and fast charging with either Sterling 3 stage charger 40 amp, 90A alternator via adverc, or Air-x at up to 28 amp.

My only concern is that although charging at the 14V from the adverc, the voltage drops to 12.6V quite quickly and sits there slowly going down. Available power to use seems about right. But usual 13.6 fully charged and 12.2 discharges does not apply!!

Tec help is very abrupt, not a chatty man at all, not a word wasted. He does not elaborate at all if a simple yes or no answers will do. Un like ADVERC who will explain eth theory till you understand.

He was happy with my voltage figures," Thats normal" to my comment that the batteries did not sit at 13.6 V and act as a standard Lead acid, and in a phone comment, stated the battery would, last dischaged to 11V.

That said I have run them low on a numbrer of occasions, as I sail as much as possible even with 6kts of wind, and anchor more than visit marina's, and the batteries perform as well now as they did when new.

Warranty, is you ship them bback at your cost and if they think they have failled they send you new batteries. VARTA took the word of my outlet that teh battery was knackered and it was not my mis-use.

I agree that there is no evidence of the them bieing a major player and a lot of the good reports are from caravan users.

 

[sarabande]

yes, there are some 'interesting' statements on their website ! Most of them come from a sloppy explanation of the processes and terms. e.g. "the bigger one is starved and will lose capacity"

Their rationale for a "compensation cable" in batteries connected in parallel is also a point for discussion. (p23 of the brochure)


On the matter of equal length cabling at the batteries...

"When making a connection in parallel, specific attention is needed for the cabling used. It is of the utmost importance that ALL the wires to the central conductor as of the same length"

I understand the theory, but with heavy duty cables, the resistance is SO low that any voltage drop will be insignificant.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

I was considering some.
So I rang Tayna to see what they they thought about them.
I bought Varta.

 

[maxi77]

yes, there are some 'interesting' statements on their website ! Most of them come from a sloppy explanation of the processes and terms. e.g. "the bigger one is starved and will lose capacity"

Their rationale for a "compensation cable" in batteries connected in parallel is also a point for discussion. (p23 of the brochure)


On the matter of equal length cabling at the batteries...

"When making a connection in parallel, specific attention is needed for the cabling used. It is of the utmost importance that ALL the wires to the central conductor as of the same length"

I understand the theory, but with heavy duty cables, the resistance is SO low that any voltage drop will be insignificant.

Remember they are often aimed at caravanners who tend to expect to get 110AH from a 110AH battery and will regularly discharge their batteries down to below 11V. I have had 2 on my boat for a year now and have had no problems.

 

[bluedragon]

I was considering some.
So I rang Tayna to see what they they thought about them.
I bought Varta.

That's interesting! I was going to call Tanya today. I'd rather buy from them or a local supplier, not mail order from Elecsol.

So what did they say (if repeatable on the forum)?

 

[Plevier]

My bench mark was the 50% discharge cycle rate - which is a respectable 2,500 - but the graph show a range of 1,200 at 100% discharge to over 6,000 at 20% discharge.
They have a 7 year warranty.
With regard to charging they are rated at 14.2 to 14.4 and my sterling multi stage chargers at 28.8v (SLA setting for 24V system) is just at the upper end of this range, and was confirmed by the agent as being perfectly acceptable.
I also took the wiring example (all cable lengths matched) very seriously too - I wanted to replace the cables anyway.

What do they mean by 100% - 100% of the nominal 20 hour capacity, or of some derating of it?
I certainly take my hat off to them if that is achieved.
Is the warranty full replacement or pro rata to age? How is failure defined - drop to what %age of nominal capacity?
A pro rata warranty to say 50% capacity (just as an example, I don't know what they offer) is not too onerous to fund. Warranties are marketing. We used to make car batteries for a major national name. They sold two qualities, one with a 3 year warranty, the other with a lifetime warranty for the original owner, and they applied that without argument. There was a considerable price difference, but the only technical difference was the colour of the box. Literally.

 

[BGW]

What do they mean by 100% - 100% of the nominal 20 hour capacity, or of some derating of it?
I certainly take my hat off to them if that is achieved.
Is the warranty full replacement or pro rata to age? How is failure defined - drop to what %age of nominal capacity?
A pro rata warranty to say 50% capacity (just as an example, I don't know what they offer) is not too onerous to fund. Warranties are marketing. We used to make car batteries for a major national name. They sold two qualities, one with a 3 year warranty, the other with a lifetime warranty for the original owner, and they applied that without argument. There was a considerable price difference, but the only technical difference was the colour of the box. Literally.

These are questions you should be asking Elecsol, not me, but looking at the brochure it states they (the Carbon AGM batteries) can manage 1,400 cycles to 11v - much flatter than I would ever intentionally take them to.
If I ever need to claim I will let you know the outcome.

 

[bluedragon]

The motorhome community have some pretty broad views on these batteries http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-98997-days0-orderasc-0.html but although it raises some issues of reliabilty and diffcult warranty claims, it doesn't really address the fundamental claims. One poster says that if you look after any battery it'll last 5 years. The question is do Elecsol batteries give you room to abuse them and still get five years + life. Still not clear to me.

I had to fit a 110Ah heavy-duty HGV battery the other day, as at short notice that was the only thing that would fit the box clamps and cabling before we set-off for a few days cruising. I wondered if I should have waited and got a pair of Elecsols. Now I'm not so sure. The HGV battery weighs a ton, was fairly cheap and might just do the job, especially if I fit a second in parallel and don't deep discharge them.

PS - I was told these HGV batteries are rated at 10hrs, so compared to the 20hr rated leisure batteries, may well give more than 110Ah at moderate loads. Can anyone confirm this?

 

[NickHarley]

Elecsol - my experience

I can't comment on the technical aspects, but just to say that I 'invested' in a 125ah Carbon Fibre Elecsol last spring for my domestic circuit. I'd previously been using cheap 85AH 'leisure' batteries, but they tended to last only 2-3 years.

This spring (one year on) I'm getting the 'dying battery' symptoms already - low battery alarms on instruments (& low voltage) after just a day's sailing (with chartplotter & autopilot etc.). As mentioned elswhere, the charge does drop off pretty quick with these, & it may be that they run (for longer?) at slightly lower voltages.

I've got a relatively gutless alternator (Std 1GM10... 35amp?), & a small solar panel as I'm on a swinging mooring, & I suppose these aren't ideal circumstances for battery life (& other batteries have sufferred)... but the bottom line is that I'm regretting spending the extra on this. I spent the extra thinking it would survive longer.

To be fair I've not tried the warrantly option... but if you read some other reviews, Elecsol's customer service seems to have a poor repuatation.

BTW (not the same I know), but my 1998 'Delphi' engine battery is still going fine.

 

[Plevier]

PS - I was told these HGV batteries are rated at 10hrs, so compared to the 20hr rated leisure batteries, may well give more than 110Ah at moderate loads. Can anyone confirm this?

There are many different standards so can't be definite but 20hr is common for automotive batteries, 10hr for industrial stuff. Not a huge difference.