Elan 333 pointing within 18 degrees of true wind ... ?

[brownsox]

We have just had our Elan 333 sailed back to the UK from Corfu by a professional crew, to sell her in part of the world where boats like that are better appreciated. The skipper, enthusiastic about her sailing performance, wrote a review for us to show to prospective purchasers, which includes this:
"During our crossing of the Biscay She pointed with effortlessly within 18 degrees of the true wind. Impressive to say the least."
Without really studying it I sent it to someone who - to say the least - queried that. Thinking it was maybe a typo, we checked with the skipper, who stands by it ...
"That sentence is completely true. When I navigated her across Biscay for the last 48 hrs of the crossing she sailed at 18 degrees off the true wind angle. She is a performance cruiser in the true sense of the meaning. A credit to her designer. So in answer to the last part of your question. With a capable crew in light airs a roll tack through the eye of the wind could be done with in say 40 degrees."
What does the forum think? We don't want to put people off if it sounds incredible!

 

[flaming]

It's absolute rubbish.

 

[Zen Zero]

It seems more likely he meant apparent wind.

I'm not sure how he would measure angle to true wind unless he was tacking regularly from close hauled to close hauled and recording the track on the gps - you could then measure the angles and take the average.

 

[vyv_cox]

It seems more likely he meant apparent wind.

I'm not sure how he would measure angle to true wind unless he was tacking regularly from close hauled to close hauled and recording the track on the gps - you could then measure the angles and take the average.

You can do it easily with our B&G Triton and Zeus2, just read it off the screen. However, it is impossible for any yacht to sail at 18 degrees to the apparent wind, never mind the true, which will always be a bigger number close-hauled. I suspect an instrument calibration problem.

 

[dunedin]

Nonsense. Perhaps the wind sensor in the mast needs recalibration if off centre.

(Previous Elan owner)

 

[flaming]

Thinking about this I have concerns at any professional skipper who actually thinks he tacks through 40 degrees. It's such obvious rubbish. The Elan 333 polars I pictured above show a best VMG at just over 40 degrees to the wind. Just under 90 degrees tacking angle. Which is entirely consistent with it being the very good upwind boat it is.

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

I once sailed close hauled on port tack at a decent speed with a true and apparent wind of about 0, it lasted for half an hour or so as we sailed from Lymington to Alum bay in 86/87. The bottom two thirds of the sails worked properly, but the tops were flapping on the centre line. We surmised that it must have been some sort of temperature inversion. I can't remember what the windspeed at the top showed (or if we even had the instruments on as we weren't racing) so have no idea what might have happened if we'd tacked. The air above could have been static or just sheared at about 40ft up.

So it isn't impossible, but I can't see it lasting more than an hour or two.

And a further thought. If a boat could sail that close you'd be running out of options for removing twist from the sails. (It's always amused me that physics has arranged for the wind to twist with height the way that it does, because as sailors we'd be stuffed if it twisted the other way).

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

Thinking about this I have concerns at any professional skipper who actually thinks he tacks through 40 degrees.

I meant to add that in my post!

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I meant to add that in my post!

Yes just read it and that was my first thought.

 

[DJE]

However, it is impossible for any yacht to sail at 18 degrees to the apparent wind,

I have seen 18 degrees apparent wind angle on a J109 and the polars for the Elan above give 6 knots boat speed at 37 degrees true wind angle in 12 knots of true wind speed. This works out to about 17 knots apparent wind speed and 12.5 degrees apparent wind angle!
Agree that the claim of 20 degrees to true wind is impossible though.

 

[sarabande]

If one had benevolent tides/surface current, 18 degrees true is not impossible on one tack.

 

[fredrussell]

If one had benevolent tides/surface current, 18 degrees true is not impossible on one tack.

...or if one is measuring wind factors with a NASA instrument. Mine has often shown that I'm sailing at zero degrees to the wind. Gives me a hell of a buzz and makes me feel real good about my MAB.

 

[dom]

Agree that the claim of 20 degrees to true wind is impossible though.

Ahh, but how do you know Nigel Farage wasn't on the helm?

...he says anything is possible and who are we to say otherwise

 

[rotrax]

What does the forum think? We don't want to put people off if it sounds incredible!

Could you please repeat that?

I was unable to hear because of the pigs flying over the building.............................................

 

[colhel]

Well I think the OP should be congratulated, far more effective than "I've got an Elan 333, where should I advertise it?"

 

[Alan ashore]

By a somewhat shakey viaduct, this thread took my train of thought to Walter Mathau and son in Pete n Tillie. (Putting fuel in the neighbours tank)

 

[brownsox]

Thank you Colhel ... OP blushes!
We honestly did want to know whether to send the review to people who've enquired as it stands, or whether to edit it.
Maybe saying 28 degrees would be sensible?
But there is nevertheless some truth in what you say ...

 

[Alan ashore]

Thank you Colhel ... OP blushes!
We honestly did want to know whether to send the review to people who've enquired as it stands, or whether to edit it.
Maybe saying 28 degrees would be sensible?
But there is nevertheless some truth in what you say ...

I suggest you edit the review to say "very close winded" or similar. 28 TWA is still nonsense.

 

[TallBuoy]

Any boat can point at 18 degrees TWA, it just won't go anywhere.

Maybe he was steering 018 towards UShant.

Like others, I worry about a professional sailor claiming the impossible, especially defending it when questioned.

 

[oldsalt]

Totally impossible. Any claims must have been due to faulty instruments, or optimistic reading of them. Not a very professional crew....