Eberspacher - replace the old one or buy new - what would you do?

[Laurin]

We have a Contest 32 CS which is a tardis of a 32' Ketch. It has a very large internal volume compared with an average 32' yacht.

When we had our engine replaced last year we removed the old Eberspacher D1 to make space in the engine bay for a new battery charger. The plan was for the Eber to be put in the cockpit locker, but as we were running behind schedule this never got done.

The engineer thinks we should upgrade the Eber to a D4, but we are unsure. My immediate reaction was that I was on board overnight during the Feburary that my youngest was 4 month old with the old heater so why would I upgrade. Husband now reminds me that although I was cosy enough in the aft cabin snuggled up with 2 kids he was fozen in the forepeak.

There is an outlet in the aft cabin, one in the heads and one in the main cabin, but no way to get an outlet into the forepeak whichever heater we fit.

We have no idea of the age of the old heater, we have never serviced it.

We have the money for a new heater but obviously if we can get away with the old heater then we have more money to spend on other toys.

With 2 small children on board we tend to have little time to do work ourselves and so would be paying the boatyard to do this.

Cost to replace old heater but with new ducting and timer is approx £1000

Cost to upgrade to new D4 heater is just over £3000

Cost to upgrade to a new D2 is £2900

We keep the boat in the water all year, but don't tend to use it over the really cold months. I have read something about not oversizing the heater as they tend to coke up.

We've been mulling this over all summer and now it's getting colder we're still no wiser, so thought we'd turn to the knowledge bank that is the PBO forum.

So, what would you do in our position?

Thanks

 

[David2452]

A D2 at 2.2kw is not sufficient for your boat in my view and I would certainly never fit one on a boat that size and volume, I would upgrade to a D4 or a Webasto AT3900 Evo, possibly a Mkuni MY30 at 3.5kw, make sure all the ducting is properly lagged and the remote temperature sensor is fitted well forward. Don't pay the boatyard to do it, get a registered Eber or Webo dealer and take advantage of their 3 year on board warranty. I wouldn't worry about cycling and coking so much now, assuming your regular fuel supply is the more commonly available ULSD red. Bung the old D2 on Ebay, it will sell well at this time of year.

 

[NormanS]

You will find that the new model Ebers use much less battery power than the older models. Well, I did anyway. (Airtronic D4).

 

[sailorman]

We habe a Mikuni MY 30 that replaced a webbo, now 5 seasons old. All the ducting was replaced this year supplied by a very nice forumite with a MoBo in his shed

 

[pvb]

There is an outlet in the aft cabin, one in the heads and one in the main cabin, but no way to get an outlet into the forepeak whichever heater we fit.

Sounds like you're routing the ducting down the port side, can't it continue under the port settee berth and go through into the forepeak?

Regardless, the D1 isn't really adequate. A 4kW heater will get the boat up to temperature quickly, and will then be quiet as it ticks over to maintain temperature. I've got a Webasto AirTop 3900, and it's amazingly quiet once the boat is warm.

 

[halb]

I had the same decision to make earlier this year, my boat is a 36' ketch, I had a 30 year old Eber and swapped it like for like, but didn't pay anything like the 3k you quote, my supplier was Butlertechnic their name has been mentioned a few times on this forum. The advice I got from them was good and helpful, hence my purchasing from them, delivery as promised etc etc. I did ascertain that the 'marine unit is the same I most aspects as the bus/truck units except in price, marine being almost twice the price, guess which is installed in Demoiselle!? The warranty is shorter if you use the truck unit in a boat. Hope the above is useful. Butlertechnic also sell Webasto units

 

[kennyh]

Personally, if you have the money, I would stop thinking about it and fit the D4.

I've a 30ft with a D4 and I'd like even more BTU's that it can throw out.

If it will let you enjoy your boat (in all the cabins) for longer in the season, then it is worth it.

 

[sailorman]

Personally, if you have the money, I would stop thinking about it and fit the D4.

I've a 30ft with a D4 and I'd like even more BTU's that it can throw out.

If it will let you enjoy your boat (in all the cabins) for longer in the season, then it is worth it.

My MY 30, is quite satisfactory in 37 ft

 

[fireball]

It really depends on how you're intending to use the boat.

You've said that the ducting cannot get into the forecabin - if this is really the case then you'll need to consider when you'd use the boat and need heat in the front - perhaps you restrict the really cold nights to marinas with shorepower and use an electric heater?

The original Eber (D1) isn't really man enough to heat the boat, but it can take the chill off - so if you're sailing when it's just chilly but not cold then that will be sufficient, but if you want to extend your sailing into the colder times then the D4 would be the better bet - can't see the point in the D2 as it's not much more powerful than the D1 and nearly as expensive as the D4.

We had a D3 in a 37'er - it was just about ok ...

 

[[2574]]

We had a D3 in a 37'er - it was just about ok ...

Ditto, D3LC in a 39'er and just about okay. So I've doubled up with a 5kw Hydronic system as well. Never run both at the same time though. If we need hot water and warmth we use the Hydronic, otherwise the Airtronic (old version though). Advantage of Hydronic is small diameter pipes to run around the boat.

 

[fireball]

Ditto, D3LC in a 39'er and just about okay. So I've doubled up with a 5kw Hydronic system as well. Never run both at the same time though. If we need hot water and warmth we use the Hydronic, otherwise the Airtronic (old version though). Advantage of Hydronic is small diameter pipes to run around the boat.

We did consider a hyrdronic system - but for us it wouldn't have been viable - putting radiators in would've been tricky and expensive, putting air boxes in would've defeated the object of having the hyrdonic system to start with.... but that's the problem with an AWB ...

 

[Melleman]

We have a 6 year old D5 that constantly give up.
So today I bougt a new one.
The old one is going to be serviced and put in a locker as backup.

So buy new.....

They are god when working,the sad thing is after 10000 hours they need constant tlc.( IMHO or I ´m not very lucky
when it come to heaters)
Our now broken D5 had 11000 hour last time a checkt it.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

We did consider a hyrdronic system - but for us it wouldn't have been viable - putting radiators in would've been tricky and expensive, putting air boxes in would've defeated the object of having the hyrdonic system to start with.... but that's the problem with an AWB ...

I have the Eber' Hydronic system, fitted to the boat prior to me being the owner. I have mixed feelings about it, but mostly positive.

The water heated by the Eber' travels through a loop of strong plastic pipework to two fairly small heater matrix's that are rather like a car heaters matrix.

There is a fan behind each matrix and the water does heat up the calorifier on the way round.

The Eber' has coked up twice in 3 seasons so it would appear I have some individual problem with my installation. That aside it also warms the lockers as the pipework passes through the boat.

The pipework in my boat should be better lagged in places where heat is not needed so that's another thing on my to do list.

If putting in a new system to a boat, the pipework requires a little less space to route compared to a hot air system although if you have a

leak in a pipe I guess it would be a greater problem than a leak in a hot air system.

I have no idea of price in comparison to an air system but I would still consider it, especially if you are thinking of a calorifier too

S.

 

[David2452]

I am a big advocate of wet systems, but only when I can load the boiler correctly with radiators and will, along with a number of my colleagues no longer use matrix due to past customer dissatisfaction, the small coolant volume and the matrix performance at the temperatures produced are simply unsatisfactory and cause cycling and premature coking. A matrix claimed at for instance 5kw will not produce anything like that at evaporator boiler coolant temperatures, couple them to your engine coolant and they come into their own.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

I am a big advocate of wet systems, but only when I can load the boiler correctly with radiators and will, along with a number of my colleagues no longer use matrix due to past customer dissatisfaction, the small coolant volume and the matrix performance at the temperatures produced are simply unsatisfactory and cause cycling and premature coking. A matrix claimed at for instance 5kw will not produce anything like that at evaporator boiler coolant temperatures, couple them to your engine coolant and they come into their own.

Hi David,
If you could let me know exactly what the matrix is replaced by I would be very interested in detail

thanks
S.

 

[fireball]

I have the Eber' Hydronic system, fitted to the boat prior to me being the owner. I have mixed feelings about it, but mostly positive.

I really liked the idea of Hyrdonic for the reasons you say - the downside for me was the cost of getting the heat out of the system - the matrix systems used more power than a blown air and were expensive, radiators were expensive to source (for the space we had available) and would be tricky to fit. And you still have to have the pump pushing the liquid around ... all in all quite a draw on power (well, I thought so anyway).

I'd consider it again (if/when we buy a boat) ...

 

[David2452]

Hi David,
If you could let me know exactly what the matrix is replaced by I would be very interested in detail

thanks
S.

Radiators, type 22 if I can get them in, no TRVs either and enough of them to get the coolant back down to temperature by the time the boiler sees it again., not often viable on a yacht I know, but I use them on yachts sometimes when I can. Something I often use now is the Thermo Top E marine unit , it i s 4.2KW rather than the Thermo Top E's 5.2KW so is easier to load.

 

[David2452]

The pipework in my boat should be better lagged in places where heat is not needed so that's another thing on my to do list.

From reading the rest of your post that is the last thing you want to be doing as it sounds like you are not getting rid of enough heat as it is which is (only) one of the things that leads to the premature coking, what fuel are you using BTW?
If somebody would just make a matrix with a couple of litre header tanks at each end it would make them much more viable for these kind of systems.

 

[findus]

From reading the rest of your post that is the last thing you want to be doing as it sounds like you are not getting rid of enough heat as it is which is (only) one of the things that leads to the premature coking, what fuel are you using BTW?
If somebody would just make a matrix with a couple of litre header tanks at each end it would make them much more viable for these kind of systems.

David, what is a type 22 radiator? Aren't the modern heaters modulating and reduce the output, when the load reduces and the return temperature goes up? And what is a matrix with a header tank good for? Just interested, as I am about to recommission an old Hydronic M 10 system and thinking about improvements. Thanks, Findus

 

[Laurin]

Thanks for all the replies... sorry I haven't been back sooner (the joys of school holidays!). Guess we better look at the new heater then!

Sounds like you're routing the ducting down the port side, can't it continue under the port settee berth and go through into the forepeak?

We have water tanks under both saloon berths.