Eberspächer to shortly release bioethanol vehicle/boat heater

[Steve C Cronin]

With the fuel available for these currently (in bulk) going at £1.82/ltr delivered in 5litre cans, surely this is the way for the future with boat heating?

Amazing how this technology has crept up on the boating community without us noticing. You can even get domestic fires that run on the stuff now from B & Q!

With:- C2H5OH + 3 O2 = 2 CO2 + 3 H2O + Heat and complete combustion being certain, there is just no possibility of monoxide poisoning, although a build-up of CO2 asphyxiation is a possibility in badly ventillated places with direct buring heaters but with the Ebers.'s remote system this would be very hard to achieve.

 

[Boo2]

With the fuel available for these currently (in bulk) going at £1.82/ltr delivered in 5litre cans, surely this is the way for the future with boat heating?

Dunno. That's quite a bit more than untaxed diesel for heating and the fuel has a lower calorific value too.

But my main problem with it is : what do you do when you have diesel but no bioethanol ? Or vice versa ? Seems better to me to have bigger tanks and only one fuel. However I do take your point about CO poisoning.

Boo2

 

[FishyInverness]

Amazing how this technology has crept up on the boating community without us noticing. You can even get domestic fires that run on the stuff now from B & Q!

Fred Drift-ish but they're c**p! More for the look than the practicality - Being a B&Q Part Timer, we sat down and worked out the heat output, burn time and cost one quiet Sunday - and these fires (Part domestic, part outdoor heater in design), cost almost twice as much as running an electric heater for the same output and time

 

[Steve C Cronin]

Fred Drift-ish but they're c**p! More for the look than the practicality - Being a B&Q Part Timer, we sat down and worked out the heat output, burn time and cost one quiet Sunday - and these fires (Part domestic, part outdoor heater in design), cost almost twice as much as running an electric heater for the same output and time

But if that is based upon B&Q's pricing (around £7.90 IIRC?), although not excessive, I can see how you came to that conclusion. However, how do the figures look when you use £1.82/litre as the running cost?

 

[AntarcticPilot]

With the fuel available for these currently (in bulk) going at £1.82/ltr delivered in 5litre cans, surely this is the way for the future with boat heating?

Amazing how this technology has crept up on the boating community without us noticing. You can even get domestic fires that run on the stuff now from B & Q!

With:- C2H5OH + 3 O2 = 2 CO2 + 3 H2O + Heat and complete combustion being certain, there is just no possibility of monoxide poisoning, although a build-up of CO2 asphyxiation is a possibility in badly ventillated places with direct buring heaters but with the Ebers.'s remote system this would be very hard to achieve.

ANY maladjusted flame can produce carbon monoxide; ethanol is no different from other fuels in this regard. However, as the flame temperature is lower, incomplete combustion (which is what results in CO) is less likely (remember the old schoolboy trick of burning meths on the palm of your hand?)

Just for completeness, the equation for complete combustion is as you give it. However, in oxygen poor conditions you can get another reaction going on:

C2H5OH + 4CO2 -> 6CO + 3H2O

I agree it is less likely to be a problem with ethanol, because the temperature of combustion is low - but therefore less effective for heating! But to say it is completely free of CO hazard is not correct.

 

[aquaplane]

ANY maladjusted flame can produce carbon monoxide; ethanol is no different from other fuels in this regard. However, as the flame temperature is lower, incomplete combustion (which is what results in CO) is less likely (remember the old schoolboy trick of burning meths on the palm of your hand?)

Just for completeness, the equation for complete combustion is as you give it. However, in oxygen poor conditions you can get another reaction going on:

C2H5OH + 4CO2 -> 6CO + 3H2O

I agree it is less likely to be a problem with ethanol, because the temperature of combustion is low - but therefore less effective for heating! But to say it is completely free of CO hazard is not correct.

I was about to say the same, but without the curly arrows.

Anyone selling a bio-ethanol burner is selling an ethanol/alcohol burner but probably charging more because they can con someone into thinking they are doing something green.

The bio-ethanol is interesting though, I'm paying £15 for 5 litres of meths from Go-Outdoors to run the Origo.

Edit, £1.95/l if you buy 100 litres, £3/l if you buy 12l, for someone who uses maybe 10l per year it's a non starter.
http://www.econol.co.uk/?gclid=CPXHtciv1rQCFczHtAodXQMAdA

 

[Otter]

In October we filled up with red duty free diesel for the Eber and it was 82p a litre - and as has been said it has a higher calorific value. If the methanol could be sourced cheaper then it becomes more viable.

 

[PhillM]

Bit of drift but at the weekend I was wondering is it would be possible to create 12v generator that runs on meths. Initial thoughts was based around those toy steam engines that used to be around, powering some sort of 12V alternator. Not knowing the practicalities I came to the conclusion that if it could have been done and had any merit to it - somebody would have done it by now.

 

[aquaplane]

Bit of drift but at the weekend I was wondering is it would be possible to create 12v generator that runs on meths. Initial thoughts was based around those toy steam engines that used to be around, powering some sort of 12V alternator. Not knowing the practicalities I came to the conclusion that if it could have been done and had any merit to it - somebody would have done it by now.

The Brazilians use lots of bio-ethanol in cars so modifying a petrol generator is probably the way to go rather than producing steam and then using that to turn a generator.

 

[Seajet]

Bit of drift but at the weekend I was wondering is it would be possible to create 12v generator that runs on meths. Initial thoughts was based around those toy steam engines that used to be around, powering some sort of 12V alternator. Not knowing the practicalities I came to the conclusion that if it could have been done and had any merit to it - somebody would have done it by now.

I think you mean 'Mamod' steam engines; the 'showmans' engine' one I gave my Dad can just about power a little light bulb !

Lovely excuse to play with one onboard though...

 

[PhillM]

I think you mean 'Mamod' steam engines; the 'showmans' engine' one I gave my Dad can just about power a little light bulb !

Lovely excuse to play with one onboard though...

Yeah, that's the one. Wouldn't want a big high power gen, just something to add a few amps from time to time. Almost a get out of jail charger in case I wanted to top up the power but didn't want to run the engine.

 

[marklucas]

Surely the other issue with ethanol (and methanol) is their flammability. Not as bad as petrol, but still much more of a concern than diesel.

I always remember my Scoutmaster introducing us to Primus stoves. A quick demonstration of what happens when you put a lit match to some meths and then paraffin was a salient lesson. Indeed, he managed to float a lit match on the paraffin, and all it did was act as a wick for the paraffin to burn.

 

[Steve C Cronin]

ANY maladjusted flame can produce carbon monoxide; ethanol is no different from other fuels in this regard. However, as the flame temperature is lower, incomplete combustion (which is what results in CO) is less likely (remember the old schoolboy trick of burning meths on the palm of your hand?)

Just for completeness, the equation for complete combustion is as you give it. However, in oxygen poor conditions you can get another reaction going on:

C2H5OH + 4CO2 -> 6CO + 3H2O

I agree it is less likely to be a problem with ethanol, because the temperature of combustion is low - but therefore less effective for heating! But to say it is completely free of CO hazard is not correct.

The reaction you suggest with cardon dioxide is far less likely to occur in a free atmosphere situation than one between ethanol and oxygen.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

The reaction you suggest with cardon dioxide is far less likely to occur in a free atmosphere situation than one between ethanol and oxygen.

Yes, but it only has to happen at low levels to cause potentially lethal levels of CO; we have a very low tolerance to CO. We aren't talking about a flame that is burning properly as the manufacturer designed it; we are talking about a situation where the burner is damaged, or something else is causing incomplete combustion.

This reaction, or equivalent ones in a hydrocarbon flame, is how CO is generated. ANY flame CAN generate CO, and there will be regions in any flame where CO is being generated - even if it is burnt back to CO2 in another region of the flame. So, things that cool a flame (cold water in a cooking pan too low over the flame can do it) will increase the amount of CO generated.

I agree that an ethanol flame is less likely to generate CO, but the OP said it eliminated the risk, and it doesn't.

 

[marklucas]

The reaction you suggest with cardon dioxide is far less likely to occur in a free atmosphere situation than one between ethanol and oxygen.

You are correct that the reaction with oxygen is far more likely, but considering the lethal risks of the reaction with CO2 producing CO and the way in which simple burner / jet issues / reduced ventilation can dramatically change the circumstances ...

One can never be too safe!

 

[Steve C Cronin]

You are correct that the reaction with oxygen is far more likely, but considering the lethal risks of the reaction with CO2 producing CO and the way in which simple burner / jet issues / reduced ventilation can dramatically change the circumstances ...

One can never be too safe!

"Free atmosphere" excludes jets, nozzles and reduced ventillation situations, surely? Ethanol is a better starting point than any other fuel, barring hydrogen in the poisoning safety aspect.

 

[Heckler]

In October we filled up with red duty free diesel for the Eber and it was 82p a litre - and as has been said it has a higher calorific value. If the methanol could be sourced cheaper then it becomes more viable.

and so called kerosene (heating oil) at the local garage for 65p a litre is an eve n better bet!
Stu

 

[bendyone]

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/20110914/frankfurt-motor-show-2011-eberspaecher-bioethanol-heater.htm

 

[dslittle]

Bit of drift but at the weekend I was wondering is it would be possible to create 12v generator that runs on meths. Initial thoughts was based around those toy steam engines that used to be around, powering some sort of 12V alternator. Not knowing the practicalities I came to the conclusion that if it could have been done and had any merit to it - somebody would have done it by now.

Not meths but I found this recently for LPG. At the moment it can't be plumbed in permanently or I would have considered it. No connection but interesting.

http://www.thesupercharger.co.uk/photo-gallery-lpg/4570369867

 

[PhillM]

Not meths but I found this recently for LPG. At the moment it can't be plumbed in permanently or I would have considered it. No connection but interesting.

http://www.thesupercharger.co.uk/photo-gallery-lpg/4570369867

Thanks, thats is quite an interesting ides for those who carry LPG.