Eastern Adriatic - Croatia and more

[Caladh]

We are thinking about heading north up the Adriatic next year for a change from Greece. Having heard all sorts of horror stories about hassle from the locals, anchorage fees and high costs, has anyone been there recently and can give a more balanced view ? The plan may be be to head up to Venice early season and then come back down to the Ionian over the 3/4 month period. Thanks.

 

[RupertW]

We are thinking of doing the opposite after two seasons in Croatia, we flew to Crete a couple of weekends ago to check it out and scoured threads about sailing in Greece.

We both work, so our sailing is a few single weeks in the Summer and one fortnight, so our base needs to be very secure for months on end and through the Winter, and have great places starting within a few hours.

We've decided on a third year in Croatia because Greece alarms us at the moment because
- There seem to be so few secure all weather marina bases compared to the dozens in Croatia
- Town quays in Croatia all have lazy lines of the right length, and marinaros to help you in and out - no fouled anchors or dodgy divers to worry about
- no port police or different rules in different places, just a harbour office or marinaro to take your money, show you a table of charges based on length and charge you exactly that
- more anchorages than you can shake a stick at, everywhere and always another one or three on the opposite side of each island if the forecast is wrong for your first choice.

Basically it feels like Northern European organisation but set in the sunny Med. Marinas are very pricey indeed, so say €90 a night for a forty foot boat compared to €20 for a town quay with electricity and water (and these always work).

Restarant prices are at UK level, but we found Crete to be just the same.

Attitude is utterly different - we were overwhelmed by the friendliness and welcoming ways of Greek people and loved it. We will definitely be basing ourselves in Greece some year soon.

For now though it's the reliability, lack of bureacracy and choices offered by the "Yorkshiremen with tans" who inhabit Croatia.

 

[Metabarca]

As RupertW says, Croatia generally works but is very expensive now and not very friendly compared to the rest of the Adriatic. But if you stay away from the marinas and choose secluded bays (ie far from any villages where you will be charged to drop your anchor), then it need not be so bad. Best to avoid mid-July to mid-August.
If you want somewhere to leave your boat, Monfalcone (near Trieste, where I'm based boat wise) is the cheapest option I've ever found. Secure and with all assistance if anything needs doing on the boat. And the food's better.

 

[RichardS]

For now though it's the reliability, lack of bureacracy and choices offered by the "Yorkshiremen with tans" who inhabit Croatia.

I don't get these references to unfriendly Croatians. We've been there several weeks a year for the last five years and have always found Croatians to be helpful and friendly.

This year our outboard conked out in Hvar Town where you might expect the tradesman to be pretty cynical towards visitors. Anyway, one of the men who operate the tourists boats asked if he could help, filled up the tank with half a litre of fuel and had a fiddle with the engine. In the end, I managed to sort it out and tried to give him a fiver for his trouble and the fuel but he would not accept it so I stuffed it in his shirt pocket and ran off!

I have similar stories from every year. There is one nationality that we sometimes have a minor problem with in Croatia, although not this year, but it is not Croatians.

Maybe I don't see the problem because I'm also a Yorkshireman!

Richard

 

[charles_reed]

We are thinking of doing the opposite after two seasons in Croatia, we flew to Crete a couple of weekends ago to check it out and scoured threads about sailing in Greece.

We both work, so our sailing is a few single weeks in the Summer and one fortnight, so our base needs to be very secure for months on end and through the Winter, and have great places starting within a few hours.

We've decided on a third year in Croatia because Greece alarms us at the moment because
- There seem to be so few secure all weather marina bases compared to the dozens in Croatia
- Town quays in Croatia all have lazy lines of the right length, and marinaros to help you in and out - no fouled anchors or dodgy divers to worry about
- no port police or different rules in different places, just a harbour office or marinaro to take your money, show you a table of charges based on length and charge you exactly that

- more anchorages than you can shake a stick at, everywhere and always another one or three on the opposite side of each island if the forecast is wrong for your first choice.

Basically it feels like Northern European organisation but set in the sunny Med. Marinas are very pricey indeed, so say €90 a night for a forty foot boat compared to €20 for a town quay with electricity and water (and these always work).

Restarant prices are at UK level, but we found Crete to be just the same.

Attitude is utterly different - we were overwhelmed by the friendliness and welcoming ways of Greek people and loved it. We will definitely be basing ourselves in Greece some year soon.

For now though it's the reliability, lack of bureacracy and choices offered by the "Yorkshiremen with tans" who inhabit Croatia.

I'm interested in your observations because, having spent 3 years in Croatia and 3 in Greece I've come to a different point of view.

I suspect it depends on where you're coming from - if you have neither time, inclination or competence to work on your own boat and a very deep pocket Croatia is probably better.
It certainly does not have as many anchorages as Greece (at a rough estimate about 15%) but the town quays are better organised but x 4 the price of Greece.
The Croats, I have found are extremely friendly and very businesslike but their cuisine is probably 2nd best to the (not very outstanding) Greek cuisine.
The charges in Greece are, in fact, standard in all ports though visitors' understanding may confuse the issue and the imposition is highly variable.
You probably haven't experienced a bora - so the comment about the safety of Croatian anchorages is understandable but apocryphal. However few Greek ports or anchorages are comfortable in winds from the S-SE, many are unsafe.
I'd 2nd Metabarca's comment about Gorizia in general and Monfalcone in particular - and delightful people combining Italian charm with Teutonic competence.

For sheer cruising pleasure and scope, Croatia does not hold a candle to the Greek archipelago and mainland. But with occasional, short visits I can understand your preference - you obviously won't run into the 90-day rule, but should be very aware of it, though it may now be not enforced as Croatia is an applicant to join the EC.

PS Crete, though very pleasant, should not be judged as typical of Greece - nearly all the ports are on the N side, the anchorages are few and far between. I've been there 3 times and round it once. Made lots of friends there and I'll be going back next season.

 

[RupertW]

I don't quite understand the comment about doing work on our own boats. Our boat is a real project boat and much of our time has been spent doing it and repiping, rewiring, replacing and so on. Could be done anywhere as all tools and spares have come out by Easyjet. The only thing I can't do is replace the mast, so that's being done professionally.

The comment about the bura isn't quite right either - we've experienced plenty, alas.

But we do not have any experience of Greece apart from a weeks charter years ago and the Crete trip. If you look at postings on Greece there are none about plentiful and free anchorages but many on fouled anchors, horrible and inconsistent officials and every marina being a building site or for super yachts only.

So for us to leave a place where we nearly always anchor and have never been charged - I'd love to find somebody who has - its a no brainer.

Kos is full, Crete didn't work for us as a cruising ground, we don't really want to be by Athens, and could only find Sani as alternative base. Maybe I should start a thread on "what are the positive things about Greece"

 

[Mrnotming]

Croatia v Greece

Thanks to Caladh and to the OPs' who have given those of us who have not experienced Croatia, a primer on the realities.
It is always great to have an up-to-date source on what one's outgoings are going to be like in a given cruising ground, and the availability of shelter when winds are up.
The rather taciturn lady at a recent boat show in Dublin did not, by her demeanour, encourage us to visit Croatia, but perhaps this sternness is a national trait and must be understood first!
If the rest of peeps are Yorkshire like so much the better!

Getting a bit entrenched in Golf of Fos after several years, so looking at alternatives.

There are also improvements in facilities in the warmer southern counties of Ireland which might prompt a return to almost home waters.In particular there are new marinas in Cork harbour, a sort of improved Toulon by way of shelter, bigger than the Fal, with lots of fine eateries in the local villages, not to forget Cork city itself with its own marina now.
It tends to be milder in Cork too, similar to Cornwall.
Folk are relaxed, and once the ear is attuned a day or so, ones local accent is acquired easily!
There is an Airport for crew changes (a bit out of town).
Fresh seafood is abundant.

 

[Caladh]

Well thanks for the feedback so far. Sound expensive but OP's seem to disagree about the safety and number of anchorages available, esp. during a Bora, and whether anchorages are charged for. I am still interested to hear from OPs' who have/are been down the E.Adriatic coast recently and also info. about boat layover somewhere for a couple of weeks in July/August. Also passage plan from N.Ionian up the Adriatic. Thanks again.

 

[jimbaerselman]

Comparing Greece and Croatia

For a very short comparison between cruising in Greece and in Croatia, please see http://jimbsail.info/mediterranean - lower down the page the Adriatic and Greece have a paragraph each. For much more detail, click on the headings of each paragraph to go to new pages.

Those comparisons were first written for brochures for the charter company I was running. Over the years they were honed using feedback from our customers, a very critical group, who always asked "what's different?" before going, and soon came back to us if we got it wrong! Since then, posters on this forum have been keeping me on the straight and narrow - plus my own visits to the countries.

Charles, above, reflects my views pretty accurately. And he's in a good position to judge, flitting back and forth regularly.

Of course, charterers only spend a limited time in a country, so they want lots of experience in their two weeks at a time. In general, they love their Mediteranean experiences wherever they go. This bias is reflected in my views.

Live aboards, who can spend a lot more time adapting to their chosen cruising ground, will have different views. They will put a strong emphasis on expense if the budget is tight, or on experiences if they have good funding. Accessibility if they have families visiting, or climate when wintering. Whichever, they will defend their choice strongly, often pointing out defects in other locations which have led to their choice.

Hence a rather strong emphasis on bad news in this forum. Listen too much to the bad news, and you wouldn't go cruising . . . every location has its drawbacks!

Ah, yes, and passage plans are outlined on the Adriatic page.

 

[charles_reed]

I don't quite understand the comment about doing work on our own boats. Our boat is a real project boat and much of our time has been spent doing it and repiping, rewiring, replacing and so on. Could be done anywhere as all tools and spares have come out by Easyjet. The only thing I can't do is replace the mast, so that's being done professionally.

The comment about the bura isn't quite right either - we've experienced plenty, alas.

But we do not have any experience of Greece apart from a weeks charter years ago and the Crete trip. If you look at postings on Greece there are none about plentiful and free anchorages but many on fouled anchors, horrible and inconsistent officials and every marina being a building site or for super yachts only.

So for us to leave a place where we nearly always anchor and have never been charged - I'd love to find somebody who has - its a no brainer.

Kos is full, Crete didn't work for us as a cruising ground, we don't really want to be by Athens, and could only find Sani as alternative base. Maybe I should start a thread on "what are the positive things about Greece"

Perhaps I misled you - the standard of competence in Croatian boatyards is far less variable than in Greece and, if I had limited sailing time I would choose to go there.
The places you visited in Greece would not be those I'd recommend for a taster of what Greek sailing is like. The islands are, IMHO, over visited, over-expensive and uncomfortable.
However you have not mentioned the Peloponnesus as a cruising area - vastly more interesting than the Dubrovnik-Sibenik coast, though Trogir is worth a visit there are many cities in Sicilia which are infinitely more interesting.

I have to finish with a final Antipodean comment "whinging Poms" or perhaps the cruisers in Greek waters are trying to avoid the appalling overcrowding one experiences in Croatian waters June-August.

Whilst Pola has the largest Roman amphitheatre in good repair it cannot compare with Epidaurus

 

[RichardS]

whether anchorages are charged for.

We've been charged for anchoring in Primosten and Trogir, but not every time.

Of course, you also have to pay for the National Parks.

It's easy to avoid NPs and paid anchorages if the occasional £10 fee is a problem.

Richard

 

[alexsailor]

Croatia is CRAZY expensive.

I have a berth in Croatia since my home town is not so far away. But I am thinking to move my boat to Greece since Croatia gone mental.
What happened? Ok, first of all, marina prices are raising up every year. I am paying for my 43 sailing yacht 5500 eur/year. Then I have to pay 200 eur each year for “VINJETA” (crusing permit) and also 200 eur for the turist tax.
Of course there is around 700 eur cost for boat lift (out and in the water)...
So far I could say “ok”. But Croatia started years ago with moooring bouoys in the bays. So you have to pay around 35 eur/night.
And this July Croatian goverment issued an act that anchoring in the area 300 meteres around those bouys is prohibited! So anyone who has a concession (permit to charge for ancoring) has the right to force you to lift anchor if you do not want to pay. So you can not safely anchor since bouys are located in the best places!
The problem is there is more and more bays with such areas. One German sailor is keeping this areas up to date in Google earth. Link: http://www.wosamma.at/bojenfelder/map.php
In August there was a short notice in Croatian main news that there will be even more concessions because they have heard from sailiors that there is not enough places to safely moor. Wtf?!
The reality is that in July and August (main season in Croatia) there was a visible lack of yachts in the Adriatic. Marinas were half empty...
I do not know where Croatia is going to with this kind of policy? There are numerous charter boats sailing around in the Croatian waters. Maybe they think that charterers will pay whatever price... But I do not think so since the sailing yachts are mostly rented by Polaks, Slovaks, Checzs... And they do it because it is cheaper for them to rent a 40footer for 10 people than an apartment...
Nevertheless I think I will move from this crazy part of the world to Greece or maybe Italy... There I feel like a real turist not just someone to rip off!

 

[rotrax]

Croatia is CRAZY expensive.

I have a berth in Croatia since my home town is not so far away. But I am thinking to move my boat to Greece since Croatia gone mental.
What happened? Ok, first of all, marina prices are raising up every year. I am paying for my 43 sailing yacht 5500 eur/year. Then I have to pay 200 eur each year for “VINJETA” (crusing permit) and also 200 eur for the turist tax.
Of course there is around 700 eur cost for boat lift (out and in the water)...
So far I could say “ok”. But Croatia started years ago with moooring bouoys in the bays. So you have to pay around 35 eur/night.
And this July Croatian goverment issued an act that anchoring in the area 300 meteres around those bouys is prohibited! So anyone who has a concession (permit to charge for ancoring) has the right to force you to lift anchor if you do not want to pay. So you can not safely anchor since bouys are located in the best places!
The problem is there is more and more bays with such areas. One German sailor is keeping this areas up to date in Google earth. Link: http://www.wosamma.at/bojenfelder/map.php
In August there was a short notice in Croatian main news that there will be even more concessions because they have heard from sailiors that there is not enough places to safely moor. Wtf?!
The reality is that in July and August (main season in Croatia) there was a visible lack of yachts in the Adriatic. Marinas were half empty...
I do not know where Croatia is going to with this kind of policy? There are numerous charter boats sailing around in the Croatian waters. Maybe they think that charterers will pay whatever price... But I do not think so since the sailing yachts are mostly rented by Polaks, Slovaks, Checzs... And they do it because it is cheaper for them to rent a 40footer for 10 people than an apartment...
Nevertheless I think I will move from this crazy part of the world to Greece or maybe Italy... There I feel like a real turist not just someone to rip off!

Sounds like that post is from the Horses Mouth...................

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Another but very different post from the horse's mouth. We've been moored in Croatia for 3 years now and we find it mostly delightful. First, with regard to costs, if anyone thinks Croatia is expensive, they should try the South of France or the Balearics because Croatia is much cheaper for long term berths, fuel and maintenance costs. Similarly, if you think Croatia is busy in July/Aug, again try the W Med to see what busy looks like. The Dalmatian island chain is a cruising paradise as far as we are concerned with far more anchorages and places to visit than you could cover in a lifetime's cruising. Yes in some areas such as national parks, you will pay a charge and in other areas you will pay a modest charge for a mooring buoy but if you don't like that, go somewhere else. Yes the restaurant cuisine is mostly dull but there are better if more costly restaurants out there if you look for them. Yes, the need to buy a cruising vignette is a pain but its not a huge amount of money. Far more of a pain is having to trudge off to the harbourmaster's office to update the crew list every time you have a guest on board.
The 2 big downsides of Croatia are as follows. First, the season is relatively short. The weather doesn't seem to settle down until May and by mid October, its getting very changeable. Winters can be cold. Yes, the Bora wind is to be respected but its generally well forecast so providing you keep an eye on forecasts, you should have plenty of time to find shelter. For us, the big issue is the dearth of direct flights from the UK between October and April and if you have limited time to go boating like us, thats a problem. We move our boat to Monfalcone in Italy for the winter simply as its easier to get to there. One big problem on the horizon for Croatia is that they are joining the EU next year and nobody seems to know yet how non VAT paid vessels are going to be assessed for VAT

 

[RupertW]

+1 for everything Deleted User said.

We hadn't thought of moving the boat to Italy over the winter - good thought.

Re crew changes - perhaps we've been lucky but we just write the names and passport numbers on the vignette and get the list stamped just once or twice a year. Officials so far have seemed ok with the idea that we are using up the spaces on the list, and never have anyone on board not mentioned.

We too are very concerned about the VAT situation - the lack of clarity and the inability to pay it in advance is annoying. Our ideal on registering the boat on SSR two years ago was to pay UK VAT on the deal done entirely in sterling between a UK company and UK residents, but HMRC were very clear that the boat needed to be in UK waters before VAT could be paid.

Having spent hundreds of hour and thousands of pounds doing up a project boat then we could get clobbered a lot for improvements if its valued higher than our purchase price.

 

[Etesian]

Just to give you an idea of our general sailing experience, we have sailed over 10,000 miles in the Mediterranean and usually sail for 6 months out of the year. We are very familiar with Greece, Turkey, France, Italy, Spain. We just spent 4 months sailing in Croatia this summer. Loved every minute of it. We have a 38' Catamaran. so pricing is 150% for us. Keep that in mind. Here is what we experienced this summer.

Entering the country
You have to pay a pretty hefty usage fee to sail in Croatia. You pay by boat size as well as by how long you will be sailing. I think the cost to us was about 400 euro. But I also have to say Croatia is by far the best marked country we have ever sailed in. They have hazard markers at virtually every place there might be a problem. So at least part of that fee is going to a good cause.

Moorings
The marina's are expensive. The majority of them are a joint government and private project. Because of that the pricing in almost all of the marinas are pretty consistent. They run us about 100 euro a night. The marina's are extremely well maintained and all have mooring lines. You will always be met and someone that will help with the lines. Town quays tend to be a little cheaper, and also have mooring lines. There are only a few anchorages that you are charged for. Most of them are in the areas that are very popular. You generally tie up to a floating buoy. Quite frankly, it is really great having these places to tie up because you would not have space to just drop your anchor. After 4 months anchoring out, we probably got charged about 10 times. They run about 15 euro a night. BUT, Croatia is a place that has literally hundreds of very protected anchorages. You are never more than a couple of hours away from a very safe place to anchor the boat. Since we alway prefer anchoring rather than marina's the cost had little effect on us.

Winds
We found the winds this summer to be very predictable and great sailing. The winds generally would come up in the early afternoon to about 10-15 knots and then die down to nothing at about 5 pm. We sailed virtually every day this summer. Our diesel consumption was almost nonexistence. I think we filled the tanks about once a month. With the price of diesel, it certainy offsets the costs of marina and sailing fees. We experienced 2 Boras while we were there. Actually one was when we were in Montenegro and one when we were in Pula. The winds got up to about 60 knots. They are extremely gusty and not a steady wind at all. Nothing to mess with. We had about 3 days notice so went to a marina to wait out the storm. They last about 2-3 days during the summer and are not very common.

General Culture
Almost everyone we talked to spoke English. It is very common. The people are delightful, friendly, and helpful. The food is not much different than any other food in the Mediterranean. Eating out is pretty reasonable, but oddly enough food at the stores was generally higher than in most other parts of the Med.

Seas
Croatia has so many long islands off its coast that you spend almost all of your sailing between the mainland and the islands off shore. Because there is mild winds and the long islands off shore, the seas were calm virtually every day. Amazing.

Croatia is a great place to sail. We will be back there for sure. Let me know if you have any specific questions.

Etesian

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I forgot to say one thing. If you want to avoid overnight mooring charges altogether, berth on a restaurant quay or mooring buoy free of charge. Obviously, you have to eat in the restaurant but mostly thats no hardship. Restaurants are dotted all over the islands and many have mooring facilities. Yes one expensive aspect of Croatian marinas is overnight mooring charges which, for a 53 footer, often exceed €100 per night although usually that includes electricity and water. On the other hand, annual berthing rates are relatively cheap. I'm in an excellent marina north of Split and I'm paying about 50% of what I was paying in Palma, Majorca

 

[mocruising]

We have been in Greece for four seasons now. We too leave the boat (And it has to be some where secure for the 5 winter months and 2-3 months during the summer. There are plenty of secure good marinas, we move every year. We spent 4 months on the boat this year and paid only an additional 200 Euro for berthing during those months on town quays in such places as Kos that provide elect. and water. Mostly we never paid on town quays or were never asked to pay, we expect to when there are services provided, but usually only use them when we need water. Our annual contract cost us about 4500 euro this includes lift in and out and additional winter storage costs, this is for a 15 m boat.

Greece is great cheap compared to the west Med and Adriatic. We did spend a year in Croatia. Please do not believe the country is going to the dogs is simply not true. We had 4 lots of visitors and passed through Athens ourselves 4 times and had no problems with transport.

We are moving to Turkey next year for a change but we are worried about all the talk of grey holding tanks as we only have 2 x 100 L black.

Also please be aware that in Greece prices are going up fast like the rest of the EU I suppose.

And crossed anchors is one of the finest observation sports I can think of!!!!!!!!!!

 

[tri39]

After 8 seasons in the Croatian Adriatic (encouraged by Metabarca), I've just returned to Preveza. I've really enjoyed the Dalmatian archipelago, imho it's the best cruising in the Med. It's true that the authorities are getting a bit greedy and officious but that's only the first and last day of your trip! I descended from Monfalcone to Cavtat during this July and it wasn't as crowded as previous years. I always wintered in Monfalcone (Nautec) and did not use Croatian marinas, nearly always anchoring for which you sometimes have to pay now, and also picking up buoys which are getting more expensive, but obviously nothing like a marina which is prohibitive in a multi on a budget!
Croatian weather is more changeable and cooler at night than Greece but I prefer that.
The ancient city ports are numerous and wonderful especially for the less keen sailors who love photographing old buildings. And the sea is rarely rough inside the islands where you can even sail south during a moderate Bora. But not north!! They are not frequent during the summer months but the fcst should be followed, just in case. The usual NW Maestral gives good afternoon sailing even when going north, seek a "lift" on the coast, esp off Istria.
Imho in Greece the Ionian is too crowded and the Aegean rather boisterous in July/Aug. As Charles says the Peloponnese has it's attractions altho not very sheltered west and south and facility light outside Kalamata.
Greece has a slightly longer season, meaning outside fitting out is good in April/October. Against that July/August just seems too hot to me nowadays especially at anchor, out sailing is not too bad.
Commuting up and down the Adriatic has a lot going for it!
I'm writing up this year's trip and the previous ones can be perused below!

 

[BrianH]

Croatia is CRAZY expensive.
I have a berth in Croatia since my home town is not so far away. But I am thinking to move my boat to Greece since Croatia gone mental.
What happened? Ok, first of all, marina prices are raising up every year. I am paying for my 43 sailing yacht 5500 eur/year. Then I have to pay 200 eur each year for “VINJETA” (crusing permit) and also 200 eur for the turist tax.
Nevertheless I think I will move from this crazy part of the world to Greece or maybe Italy... There I feel like a real turist not just someone to rip off!

Despite all the protestations about Croatia being so much cheaper than the South of France - instead of comparing with its closer neighbour, Greece - I tend to agree that Croatia is overly expensive.

I have been cruising the eastern Adriatic seaboard for 32 years from my northern Italian base - less the horrific years of the civil war that broke up the Yugoslavian federation and less last year when I had had enough with the sailing permit cost, increase in both number of buoys and their charges and the introduction of the sejour tax. It was the last that did it for me, to be charged a per head per night tax for a fictitious crew (number that the boat can accommodate) when I am single-handed, was the final straw.

But then this year I relented and set sail again for Croatia, lured by all the good memories I had of sailing the islands there. When declaring in I asked the Umag harbour master what happens next year with the vignette cost when Croatia will be a full member of the EU and unable to charge EU-flagged yachts for cruising there. "Nothing", he answered, "it will all stay the same - just like Greece that still charges." I thought it best not to argue and say that twice the German sailing association (DSV – Deutsche Segler-Verband) successfully brought Greece before the EU commission to force them to rescind the charges. It will be interesting to see what does happen next July if I do sail there. I certainly do not expect Croatia to emulate its fellow ex-Yugoslavian neighbour Slovenia and abolish all requirements of entry and charges for EU-registered boats.