e-Borders - it's not only sailors who think it's a farce!
- Thread starter rjp
- Start date
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Bilgediver
Well-Known Member
Re: e-Borders - it\'s not only sailors who think it\'s a farce!
Eurostar concern
Mr Reardon told the committee the data can not be collected in advance because many people do not book places on ferries - they simply turn up at the port.
**************************************************
Oh dear.....Now this is not what Cyclops wants.....He wants us to finalise arrangements 2 days ahead of travelling !!!!!
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
I wonder who will give??
Eurostar concern
Mr Reardon told the committee the data can not be collected in advance because many people do not book places on ferries - they simply turn up at the port.
**************************************************
Oh dear.....Now this is not what Cyclops wants.....He wants us to finalise arrangements 2 days ahead of travelling !!!!!
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
I wonder who will give??
rjp
Well-Known Member
Re: e-Borders - it\'s not only sailors who think it\'s a farce!
Oh, if you insist, as long as I don't have to give three days notice /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Oh, if you insist, as long as I don't have to give three days notice /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
FinesseChris
Well-Known Member
Re: e-Borders - it\'s not only sailors who think it\'s a farce!
From the BBC report:
" UKBA had not responded to a letter about Eurostar's legal concerns which was sent seven months ago. "
Are the UK Borders Agency (a) incompetent (b) arrogant or (c) both? And whatever the answer, can we have any confidence at all in their half-baked and oppressive system?
I think I feel civil disobedience coming on.
The French, of course, would just riot and burn the data centre down.
C
From the BBC report:
" UKBA had not responded to a letter about Eurostar's legal concerns which was sent seven months ago. "
Are the UK Borders Agency (a) incompetent (b) arrogant or (c) both? And whatever the answer, can we have any confidence at all in their half-baked and oppressive system?
I think I feel civil disobedience coming on.
The French, of course, would just riot and burn the data centre down.
C
jpcarter30
Well-Known Member
Re: e-Borders - it\'s not only sailors who think it\'s a farce!
[ QUOTE ]
The French, of course, would just riot and burn the data centre down.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's about time we emulated the French in so many ways.
[ QUOTE ]
The French, of course, would just riot and burn the data centre down.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's about time we emulated the French in so many ways.
Boat44
Well-Known Member
Re: e-Borders - it\'s not only sailors who think it\'s a farce!
Its times like these I feel like immagrating, but get put off with all the paper work I would have to fill out!
Its times like these I feel like immagrating, but get put off with all the paper work I would have to fill out!
Ariadne
Well-Known Member
Re: e-Borders - it\'s not only sailors who think it\'s a farce!
More info from E-Borders, I think not.
Thank your for your email and interest in e-Borders, and I apologise for the delay (nearly 2 months!!!) in replying.
As you are aware passenger and crew data must be submitted to e-Borders in respect of all international voyages – international journeys are ones that leave the UK and land abroad, or vice versa. Government legislation lays responsibility for the provision of data to owners or operators of all vessels due to arrive in or depart from the United Kingdom. This passenger and crew information is to be provided prior to departure.
The e-Borders Programme is aware of the range of challenges faced by recreational boaters, and is developing a number of methods to permit the submission of data including a web application, a web form and electronic file upload. While the legislation requires data to be submitted in an electronic format, there is no requirement for this data to be transmitted from the vessel itself. e-Borders has ensured that the passenger and crew data can be provided from 48 hours prior to the planned journey, up to the point of departure and in recognition of the fact there may be limited access to computers while abroad, return journey details can be submitted at the same time, from a convenient location.
This means that recreational boaters can discharge their legal obligations from home, or from any other location, such as an internet café. Our early discussions suggest that marinas and other locations are likely to offer internet access as a service to their customers who need to discharge their responsibility. It will be the responsibility of the master of the vessel to submit the data.
e-Borders recognises that voyage plans may be subject to change, for example due to adverse weather conditions or mechanical problems. The requirement is to provide accurate information to the extent it is known at the time of departure. This acknowledges that it may not be practicable to update the data during the change en route. In this situation we would expect the data to be reported as required by the legislation on a “best endeavours” basis.
e-Borders is working closely with the Royal Yachting Association (RYA) to ensure the concerns of the recreational boating sector are fully represented and understood. Meetings with the RYA are held on a regular basis to ensure an effective and workable solution for the boating public, along with the resolution of any other issues of concern.
For further information on e-Borders, please check our website at www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/advance-passenger-information.
Kind Regards,
Stakeholder Engagement Team
e-Borders, UK Border Agency
e-Mail: ebct@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk
Dear sirs,
I am very concerned about how system can actually be worked for yachtsmen. As a sailor who regularly travels overseas, can somebody please explain to me how, when I am 24 hours from my intended port (in the UK). How am I supposed to give you notice via e-mail or web site when I'm 100 miles from land (probably in Biscay) when I don't the means to do so.
What happens, do I get fined for not telling somebody when I intended to arrive? What happens if the weather turns bad and I have to run to another port for safety?
What if on a Friday night, the weather forecast is good and I want to go to France for along weekend? From what I have read I can't do this anymore.
Can I not just decide to sail to Ireland or France if I want to and the forecast is good? This idea might work for railways and airports, but unless we talking about Soviet Russia style policing it isn't going work.
Can please supply me with details of how it is going to enforced, and what paperwork has to filled out before departure and or arrival from anywhere. How will it work for those of us without the means to communicate via the internet while at sea? I do not agree with loss of my civil liberties for very dubious reasons.
More info from E-Borders, I think not.
Thank your for your email and interest in e-Borders, and I apologise for the delay (nearly 2 months!!!) in replying.
As you are aware passenger and crew data must be submitted to e-Borders in respect of all international voyages – international journeys are ones that leave the UK and land abroad, or vice versa. Government legislation lays responsibility for the provision of data to owners or operators of all vessels due to arrive in or depart from the United Kingdom. This passenger and crew information is to be provided prior to departure.
The e-Borders Programme is aware of the range of challenges faced by recreational boaters, and is developing a number of methods to permit the submission of data including a web application, a web form and electronic file upload. While the legislation requires data to be submitted in an electronic format, there is no requirement for this data to be transmitted from the vessel itself. e-Borders has ensured that the passenger and crew data can be provided from 48 hours prior to the planned journey, up to the point of departure and in recognition of the fact there may be limited access to computers while abroad, return journey details can be submitted at the same time, from a convenient location.
This means that recreational boaters can discharge their legal obligations from home, or from any other location, such as an internet café. Our early discussions suggest that marinas and other locations are likely to offer internet access as a service to their customers who need to discharge their responsibility. It will be the responsibility of the master of the vessel to submit the data.
e-Borders recognises that voyage plans may be subject to change, for example due to adverse weather conditions or mechanical problems. The requirement is to provide accurate information to the extent it is known at the time of departure. This acknowledges that it may not be practicable to update the data during the change en route. In this situation we would expect the data to be reported as required by the legislation on a “best endeavours” basis.
e-Borders is working closely with the Royal Yachting Association (RYA) to ensure the concerns of the recreational boating sector are fully represented and understood. Meetings with the RYA are held on a regular basis to ensure an effective and workable solution for the boating public, along with the resolution of any other issues of concern.
For further information on e-Borders, please check our website at www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/advance-passenger-information.
Kind Regards,
Stakeholder Engagement Team
e-Borders, UK Border Agency
e-Mail: ebct@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk
Dear sirs,
I am very concerned about how system can actually be worked for yachtsmen. As a sailor who regularly travels overseas, can somebody please explain to me how, when I am 24 hours from my intended port (in the UK). How am I supposed to give you notice via e-mail or web site when I'm 100 miles from land (probably in Biscay) when I don't the means to do so.
What happens, do I get fined for not telling somebody when I intended to arrive? What happens if the weather turns bad and I have to run to another port for safety?
What if on a Friday night, the weather forecast is good and I want to go to France for along weekend? From what I have read I can't do this anymore.
Can I not just decide to sail to Ireland or France if I want to and the forecast is good? This idea might work for railways and airports, but unless we talking about Soviet Russia style policing it isn't going work.
Can please supply me with details of how it is going to enforced, and what paperwork has to filled out before departure and or arrival from anywhere. How will it work for those of us without the means to communicate via the internet while at sea? I do not agree with loss of my civil liberties for very dubious reasons.
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Re: e-Borders - it\'s not only sailors who think it\'s a farce!
Let's hope it goes the way of the ID card scheme.
Let's hope it goes the way of the ID card scheme.
wotayottie
Well-Known Member
Re: e-Borders - it\'s not only sailors who think it\'s a farce!
[ QUOTE ]
Eurostar concern
Mr Reardon told the committee the data can not be collected in advance because many people do not book places on ferries - they simply turn up at the port.
**************************************************
Oh dear.....Now this is not what Cyclops wants.....He wants us to finalise arrangements 2 days ahead of travelling !!!!!
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
I wonder who will give??
[/ QUOTE ]
Well maybe, like airlines, they will have to insist on people booking in advance. Its time that happened on UK railways anyway , to stop the standing room only culture.
[ QUOTE ]
Eurostar concern
Mr Reardon told the committee the data can not be collected in advance because many people do not book places on ferries - they simply turn up at the port.
**************************************************
Oh dear.....Now this is not what Cyclops wants.....He wants us to finalise arrangements 2 days ahead of travelling !!!!!
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
I wonder who will give??
[/ QUOTE ]
Well maybe, like airlines, they will have to insist on people booking in advance. Its time that happened on UK railways anyway , to stop the standing room only culture.
stiknstring
Well-Known Member
Re: e-Borders - it\'s not only sailors who think it\'s a farce!
I understand that the Spanish have brought this in now for all flights to Spain. Not sure if it also applies to ferry crossings. I haven't seen anyone on this forum mention that sailors are required to do this when entering or leaving Spain. Are the Spanish just applying common sense in this regard where we Brits, as usual, cannot see the wood for the trees?
I understand that the Spanish have brought this in now for all flights to Spain. Not sure if it also applies to ferry crossings. I haven't seen anyone on this forum mention that sailors are required to do this when entering or leaving Spain. Are the Spanish just applying common sense in this regard where we Brits, as usual, cannot see the wood for the trees?
mainsail1
Well-Known Member
e borders for boaters is bonkers blockade
e borders for boaters is bonkers (I feel a T shirt logo coming on). Hows about an e borders blockade by all interested sailors who object to the proposals? Of course, we would have to decide what to blockade......Hmm
e borders for boaters is bonkers (I feel a T shirt logo coming on). Hows about an e borders blockade by all interested sailors who object to the proposals? Of course, we would have to decide what to blockade......Hmm
jason -and the arguenauts
Well-Known Member
jtwebb
Well-Known Member
Having just had a 2 month trip to Holland it is bonkers to think there is Internet access available. If it is claimed to be there it has very poor performance and will kick you out at a crucial point. If in the UK, it is expensive and still poor. Often there is none available especially out of shop hours. In practice, it will be impossible to file a plan. We were actually stuck in dunkerque for some days and eventually went when a weather improvement suddenly appeared, we would have had to miss it and get stuck again. Who is liable if a nasty accident happens as a result of trying to comply with unworkable legislation implemented by arrogant idiots who have not done adequate requirements capture?
maxi77
Well-Known Member
One of the points I still do not understand is how the E-Borders schem will catch the naughty boys who do not tell the Borders Agency what they are doing. As far as I can see the system is designed to ensure that some of those trying to comply will fail thus ensuring a ready supply of 'victims' which spin doctors will use to show how well the system works.
Or am I just getting to cycnical in my old age.
Or am I just getting to cycnical in my old age.
Gludy
Well-Known Member
I have put that very point to the Eborders assistant chief exec and so far he has refused to answer.
Basically they have 5 boat to cover the entire Uk and there is no way they can track small boat traffic. The system relies on the terrorist reporting themselves .... that is absurd.
Further an unlike an airport where there you can report on the second of departure and so actually unknowingly take a terrorist out with you and be well clear before anyone can act. At an airport they at least have 30 minutes to an hour for last minute check ins.
I have given example after example and asked how the new scheme would help but no response.
I have also accused them of dreaming up a scheme that superficially look good but in practice harms border security because it diverts resources away from a proper intelligence led system.
Bu then the propose to monitor every email, phone call and text message holding all in a central system for 10 years ..... there are some great empire building jobs to be had with Eborders!
Seeing as the system is a best endeavours system it makes the whole thing a meaningless system that just punishes otherwise law abiding citizens whilst pretending to protect our borders. It is totally without any foundation in logic.
Basically they have 5 boat to cover the entire Uk and there is no way they can track small boat traffic. The system relies on the terrorist reporting themselves .... that is absurd.
Further an unlike an airport where there you can report on the second of departure and so actually unknowingly take a terrorist out with you and be well clear before anyone can act. At an airport they at least have 30 minutes to an hour for last minute check ins.
I have given example after example and asked how the new scheme would help but no response.
I have also accused them of dreaming up a scheme that superficially look good but in practice harms border security because it diverts resources away from a proper intelligence led system.
Bu then the propose to monitor every email, phone call and text message holding all in a central system for 10 years ..... there are some great empire building jobs to be had with Eborders!
Seeing as the system is a best endeavours system it makes the whole thing a meaningless system that just punishes otherwise law abiding citizens whilst pretending to protect our borders. It is totally without any foundation in logic.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
No, not cynical. You just need to recognise that unlike most governments in the past who make policy statements that are daft let the idea die, this one thinks that just the act of making a policy means it must be made to work. They have such limited vision they are unable to think through the consequences of the decisions they take so just ignore them.
Not entirely sure that a replacement would be any better, but I think that E borders will die with this government as the new one will have much more important issues to deal with.
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
But E-Borders generally is already in place. I now have to give passport details and inside leg measurement before Sleazyjet will sell me a ticket to France.
maxi77
Well-Known Member
Well thats squeezyjet for you. We recently flew KLM and they only wanted passport details at check in. Mind you they have moved to almost wholly online check in, theough unlike many they realise whilst you may be able to check in online anywhere you may not be able to print your boarding card, so they have the option to do that at the airport.
maxi77
Well-Known Member
I am forced to admit that I have some sympathy for your correspondant. He has been tasked with creating a watertight system that will sort out all the failure of the past 12 years of NuLabor government without any new money, resources or staff. Of course it is destined to fail and drag down those associated with running it. I suspect therfore he is already working hard on his exit strategy rather than answering your questions.
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