DYNEEMA Halyard

[lustyd]

The "cruising" type has a much thinner, more loosely fitting core

We have Kingfisher Cruising Dyneema and the core isn't loose at all. They have an additional layer in there for exactly this reason, which also makes splicing much more simple. It's true that the core is thinner than double braid, but it's the correct size of Dyneema and the covers make up the size to standard cruising double braid rope so if you had 12mm you still use 12mm rather than size down as with nude Dyneema.
https://www.force4.co.uk/item/Kingfisher/Dyneema-Cruise-Rope/TCG

The rope is great, and in our good clutches it never slips. The worn clutches do slip, but then any rope would

 

[Neeves]

We have 5 winches on the mast. A lewmar 40ST dedicated to the main halyard. A Lewmar 38ST for the jib and genoa halyard, but those have a jammer each. Dedicated spinnaker winch and reefing winch. Plus a spare since both headsails now use the Lewmar 38ST winch.
The dedicated main halyard winch with Marlow racing dyneema makes adjustment super easy and no need for a jammer

If you have the winches, our 2 on the mast are both self tailing, then leaving the halyard on the winch saves the halyard from tearing the outer cover and removes the necessity to add an extra, cover (which I had never thought of . The problem with leaving the halyard on the winch takes time to release and can be a bit uncontrolled. The option is to have a clutch, locking the halyard and the halyard round the winch. When you are ready to release the halyard on the winch, undo the wraps and when the time is right (and everyone ready), release the clutch. The clutch takes the tension for a very short time (and the concept is good for dropping a spinnaker). With spinnaker drops (or any sail drop) its worth taking the effort to ensure the halyard has no kinks.

I like the idea of the extra cover, sewn on, and uses some of the cover that would otherwise be relegated to fenders or sail ties. We added dyneema as an outer cover, simple braided hollow dyneema tape, for protection against abrasion. You need to be very patient in stalling a braid as you need to keep the cover 'loose' and baggy. If you pull it aggressively it simply shrinks and locks up to the underlying cordage. The secret is keep the braid loose and baggy until you have the cover in the correct place.

Its interesting that tearing the outer cover is still such a problem and owners have found a considerable variety of methods to overcome the issue.

Jonathan

 

[geem]

If you have the winches, our 2 on the mast are both self tailing, then leaving the halyard on the winch saves the halyard from tearing the outer cover and removes the necessity to add an extra, cover (which I had never thought of . The problem with leaving the halyard on the winch takes time to release and can be a bit uncontrolled. The option is to have a clutch, locking the halyard and the halyard round the winch. When you are ready to release the halyard on the winch, undo the wraps and when the time is right (and everyone ready), release the clutch. The clutch takes the tension for a very short time (and the concept is good for dropping a spinnaker). With spinnaker drops (or any sail drop) its worth taking the effort to ensure the halyard has no kinks.

I like the idea of the extra cover, sewn on, and uses some of the cover that would otherwise be relegated to fenders or sail ties. We added dyneema as an outer cover, simple braided hollow dyneema tape, for protection against abrasion. You need to be very patient in stalling a braid as you need to keep the cover 'loose' and baggy. If you pull it aggressively it simply shrinks and locks up to the underlying cordage. The secret is keep the braid loose and baggy until you have the cover in the correct place.

Its interesting that tearing the outer cover is still such a problem and owners have found a considerable variety of methods to overcome the issue.

Jonathan

There is way more control, in my experience, with halyard on winches than with clutches. You can adjust the friction dependent on number of turns. If you keep your winch handles stored, as we do. It takes about 1 second to take the rope out of the self tailer.

 

[flaming]

If you have the winches, our 2 on the mast are both self tailing, then leaving the halyard on the winch saves the halyard from tearing the outer cover and removes the necessity to add an extra, cover (which I had never thought of . The problem with leaving the halyard on the winch takes time to release and can be a bit uncontrolled. The option is to have a clutch, locking the halyard and the halyard round the winch. When you are ready to release the halyard on the winch, undo the wraps and when the time is right (and everyone ready), release the clutch. The clutch takes the tension for a very short time (and the concept is good for dropping a spinnaker). With spinnaker drops (or any sail drop) its worth taking the effort to ensure the halyard has no kinks.

I like the idea of the extra cover, sewn on, and uses some of the cover that would otherwise be relegated to fenders or sail ties. We added dyneema as an outer cover, simple braided hollow dyneema tape, for protection against abrasion. You need to be very patient in stalling a braid as you need to keep the cover 'loose' and baggy. If you pull it aggressively it simply shrinks and locks up to the underlying cordage. The secret is keep the braid loose and baggy until you have the cover in the correct place.

Its interesting that tearing the outer cover is still such a problem and owners have found a considerable variety of methods to overcome the issue.

Jonathan

Stitching on an extra outer cover is not to do with the cover tearing, it's simply so that you can use a rope diameter appropriate for the task, whilst still being able to hold it in the clutch. I haven't seen a rope "core" in that way for a long time. If clutches were better you wouldn't need to do it....

Your technique for dropping a halyard has made me wince.... If you're talking about a highly loaded main or headsail halyard, you should do the exact reverse. Take the tension on the winch, open the clutch when there is no load on the clutch, and then ease the load from the winch until you can safely remove the wraps from the winch. Taking the load off the winch then opening the clutch just means that rope will surge through the clutch at the point of max load. Why would you risk that when you can release the tension under control?

Racing kite drops never go anywhere near a winch. flaked halyard, 3,2,1, DROP - bang the clutch. If it's coming down too fast, shut the clutch, don't put your hand anywhere near the rope... See that all the time, people grabbing the rope to slow the drop, why do that when you have an actual clutch.... But you had roughly half the load on the clutch in the first place, compared to a main or Jib halyard, and a lot more dropping to do. Main or jib halyard once the 1st couple of feet have gone you're generally pulling the sail down rather than easing it down.

 

[Neeves]

Stitching on an extra outer cover is not to do with the cover tearing, it's simply so that you can use a rope diameter appropriate for the task, whilst still being able to hold it in the clutch. I haven't seen a rope "core" in that way for a long time. If clutches were better you wouldn't need to do it....

Your technique for dropping a halyard has made me wince.... If you're talking about a highly loaded main or headsail halyard, you should do the exact reverse. Take the tension on the winch, open the clutch when there is no load on the clutch, and then ease the load from the winch until you can safely remove the wraps from the winch. Taking the load off the winch then opening the clutch just means that rope will surge through the clutch at the point of max load. Why would you risk that when you can release the tension under control?

Racing kite drops never go anywhere near a winch. flaked halyard, 3,2,1, DROP - bang the clutch. If it's coming down too fast, shut the clutch, don't put your hand anywhere near the rope... See that all the time, people grabbing the rope to slow the drop, why do that when you have an actual clutch.... But you had roughly half the load on the clutch in the first place, compared to a main or Jib halyard, and a lot more dropping to do. Main or jib halyard once the 1st couple of feet have gone you're generally pulling the sail down rather than easing it down.

When we raced we did worse. We did not have clutch on the mast for the spinnaker halyard and replaced, the idea of, the clutch with a cam cleat, but still kept the halyard on the winch until just before releasing the halyard at the cam cleat. Dropping too quickly was not an issue, speed was the focus. If you want speed then a clutch is the wrong device - too easy to have 'not quite flaked' halyard with a kink. A cam cleat is not ideal but it only takes the tension for a very short period and once the halyard is released the halyard runs (there are no obstructions - inherent in a clutch). If you are cruising - you are not in a hurry - much more relaxed.

I winced at the idea of a spinnaker halyard with a kink in the halyard as you rapidly close a mark......and the need to raise a headsail with the spinnaker flying wild and a flock of other yachts offering a distraction......

I'm not sure why you would drop a highly loaded main. Dropping the headsail was different as it was managed in the cockpit, and had its own clutch, as the other mast winch was for reefing. Similarly the main - its winch was in the cockpit and also had a dedicated clutch - but we were never in a rush to drop the main as when it was dropped we would be tied up and ready to roll it. If we were reefing we would release the mainsheet, now an unloaded main, drop the halyard to a mark and take in the reefing lines, trim up the main.

Jonathan

 

[flaming]

When we raced we did worse. We did not have clutch on the mast for the spinnaker halyard and replaced, the idea of, the clutch with a cam cleat, but still kept the halyard on the winch until just before releasing the halyard at the cam cleat. Dropping too quickly was not an issue, speed was the focus. If you want speed then a clutch is the wrong device - too easy to have 'not quite flaked' halyard with a kink. A cam cleat is not ideal but it only takes the tension for a very short period and once the halyard is released the halyard runs (there are no obstructions - inherent in a clutch). If you are cruising - you are not in a hurry - much more relaxed.

I winced at the idea of a spinnaker halyard with a kink in the halyard as you rapidly close a mark......and the need to raise a headsail with the spinnaker flying wild and a flock of other yachts offering a distraction......

I'm not sure why you would drop a highly loaded main. Dropping the headsail was different as it was managed in the cockpit, and had its own clutch, as the other mast winch was for reefing. Similarly the main - its winch was in the cockpit and also had a dedicated clutch - but we were never in a rush to drop the main as when it was dropped we would be tied up and ready to roll it. If we were reefing we would release the mainsheet, now an unloaded main, drop the halyard to a mark and take in the reefing lines, trim up the main.

Jonathan

If your halyard isn't flaked correctly it doesn't matter if it's going through a clutch, a block, or just through a slot in the side of the mast it will jam. Halyard flaking is an essential skill of the pit. Clutches actually help in this, as if you do get a jam you can shut the clutch to hold the rope whilst you deal with it.

You always have to drop a loaded main. As the halyard tension you put on with the winch has to go somewhere... That's not about being fast, it's about not releasing a highly loaded halyard just by banging open a clutch....

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Opening a loaded clutch is the surest way to trash your lines. It’s a part of my standard crew lecture for newbies. That, and not jumping from the bost to the pontoon, and not using the main traveller as a handhold at any time.

 

[Neeves]

Opening a loaded clutch is the surest way to trash your lines. It’s a part of my standard crew lecture for newbies. That, and not jumping from the bost to the pontoon, and not using the main traveller as a handhold at any time.

Your traveller must have been high up. You would need to be lying on the cockpit sole (or the yacht inverted) to need to use the traveller as a hand hold on JoXephine.

Different style and sizes of yachts need different answers. There is no one right answer. If you were racing, you were one of the yachts to beat, you had a standard crew and pulled in the trophies - then (though you might have done enough things that were right). You still need(ed) to consider other ideas - which is where forum beats bar chat.


Every day should be a school day.

Jonathan