Dylan's perfect boat?

Kelpie

Kelpie

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Latest edition of PBO gently fluttered down to my doormat today like the wafer thing piece of tissue it is. That aside, they have a glowing review of a boat called the Haber 620 which seems to have been designed for people who want to
- take it home on a trailer
- sail in shallow water
- take the ground
- be able to drop the mast effortlessly
- use an outboard for propulsion
- stand up inside
- enjoy the comforts of a deck saloon

Ok so like any new small boat it costs four or five times what a good Centaur would, but 40 years of depreciation is a hard thing for new boat builders to compete with.

www.haber-yachts.com

(No connection, etc)
 
My favourite boat at Southampton Boatshow.. missus said she'd actually come sailing if I owned one...


IMG_20160918_144025692.jpg
 
Only believe it when it happens, Fantasie 19!
With all due respect to the good lady, what she probably thinks is that you'll never buy that boat!
For your sake, I'll hope that I'm wrong. ;)
 
Kelpie said:
Latest edition of PBO gently fluttered down to my doormat today like the wafer thing piece of tissue it is. That aside, they have a glowing review of a boat called the Haber 620 which seems to have been designed for people who want to
- take it home on a trailer
- sail in shallow water
- take the ground
- be able to drop the mast effortlessly
- use an outboard for propulsion
- stand up inside
- enjoy the comforts of a deck saloon

Ok so like any new small boat it costs four or five times what a good Centaur would, but 40 years of depreciation is a hard thing for new boat builders to compete with.

www.haber-yachts.com

(No connection, etc)
Click to expand...

He does not want an outboard on a transom bracket. Is an outboard well an option or would he have to excavate his own.
 
I like the way that they have decided to embrace the whole top hamper thing and make it work. Basically styled it as a motorsailor. It works surprisingly well. The review was very positive about the sailing performance a well- it's good a nice shape underwater, a decent sized rig, and weighs bugger all.
 
It looks nice but as said new grp is so expensive compared old that for most of us you can't consider it. Imagine what sort of ordinary AWB you could buy for 40k.
Any boat of this nature has to have serious compromises. Only a new (hopefully experienced) buyer can decide.
To tow a boat means small or large light weight. Light weight means tender to sail and bobs around in rough water.
Headroom means you can't see past the coach roof and poor windward sailing performance.
Outboard on a transom means poor motoring in a sea way but in a well means in the way on cockpit floor.
A diesel means large weight when launching/ towing.
Easy to rig means small mast so poor light wind performance.
A vertical lift keel means loss of cabin space. A swing keel means poor sailing to windward and possibly loss of cabin space. A shallow long keel means some draft but poor on wind performance.
All this means that a new owner of one of these might become tired of poor sailing performance or might just love it. It all depends. I know (I think) it would not suit me. My TS sails very well to windward is light to tow but does not have headroom or the cabin space you might expect in a 6.5m boat. I still don't know after 35 years of ownership if I love because I have it and modify my sailing to suit or if I love it because it is best for me. olewill
 
William_H said:
It looks nice but as said new grp is so expensive compared old that for most of us you can't consider it. Imagine what sort of ordinary AWB you could buy for 40k.
Any boat of this nature has to have serious compromises. Only a new (hopefully experienced) buyer can decide.
To tow a boat means small or large light weight. Light weight means tender to sail and bobs around in rough water.
Headroom means you can't see past the coach roof and poor windward sailing performance.
Outboard on a transom means poor motoring in a sea way but in a well means in the way on cockpit floor.
A diesel means large weight when launching/ towing.
Easy to rig means small mast so poor light wind performance.
A vertical lift keel means loss of cabin space. A swing keel means poor sailing to windward and possibly loss of cabin space. A shallow long keel means some draft but poor on wind performance.
All this means that a new owner of one of these might become tired of poor sailing performance or might just love it. It all depends. I know (I think) it would not suit me. My TS sails very well to windward is light to tow but does not have headroom or the cabin space you might expect in a 6.5m boat. I still don't know after 35 years of ownership if I love because I have it and modify my sailing to suit or if I love it because it is best for me. olewill
Click to expand...

So you have gone for a sailing boat without much comfort, that's OK, it's just not what this boat does. I have to agree it's what I would go for in a trailable boat too.

I like my nontrailable 35' motorsailer because it does what this boat wants to without the trailable aspect. Compromise init?

And I have a 50Hp inboard available if I want it.
 
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It's the modern incarnation of the fantastic Cox Master Mariner; I'm not predicting a return to the 70's and 80's plethora of motorsailers but it's a great niche product. Wheelhouses improve the weather no end :)
 
Colvic Watson said:
It's the modern incarnation of the fantastic Cox Master Mariner; I'm not predicting a return to the 70's and 80's plethora of motorsailers but it's a great niche product. Wheelhouses improve the weather no end :)
Click to expand...

Funnily enough, when I googled the Cox, I stumbled upon Dyl's blog where he was saying how much it would suit him. The Haber is much better looking though, and might sail better too.

I hope somebody somewhere is buying these boats brand new, because if not in years to come the only boats on the second hand market will be virtually identical AWBs :(
 
Colvic Watson said:
It's the modern incarnation of the fantastic Cox Master Mariner; I'm not predicting a return to the 70's and 80's plethora of motorsailers but it's a great niche product. Wheelhouses improve the weather no end :)
Click to expand...

Funnily enough, when I googled the Cox, I stumbled upon Dyl's blog where he was saying how much it would suit him. The Haber is much better looking though, and might sail better too.

I hope somebody somewhere is buying these boats brand new, because if not in years to come the only boats on the second hand market will be virtually identical AWBs :(
 
Just the job for a lake, proberly find one or two on the broads this year for hire, wouldn't trust it much else where.
 
Rhoda Rose said:
Genuine question. Why not?
Click to expand...

Indeed - the review from David Harding (??... knows his onions, either way) was fairly glowing, and specifically mentioned that it handled well in a blow... the only downside is the price.. who's going to pay the better part of £40K for a 20 foot boat? I need loads of rich people to buy them so there's a healthy second hand market in a few years time.. :encouragement:
 
William_H said:
It looks nice but as said new grp is so expensive compared old that for most of us you can't consider it. Imagine what sort of ordinary AWB you could buy for 40k.
Any boat of this nature has to have serious compromises. Only a new (hopefully experienced) buyer can decide.
To tow a boat means small or large light weight. Light weight means tender to sail and bobs around in rough water.
Headroom means you can't see past the coach roof and poor windward sailing performance.
Outboard on a transom means poor motoring in a sea way but in a well means in the way on cockpit floor.
A diesel means large weight when launching/ towing.
Easy to rig means small mast so poor light wind performance.
A vertical lift keel means loss of cabin space. A swing keel means poor sailing to windward and possibly loss of cabin space. A shallow long keel means some draft but poor on wind performance.
All this means that a new owner of one of these might become tired of poor sailing performance or might just love it. It all depends. I know (I think) it would not suit me. My TS sails very well to windward is light to tow but does not have headroom or the cabin space you might expect in a 6.5m boat. I still don't know after 35 years of ownership if I love because I have it and modify my sailing to suit or if I love it because it is best for me. olewill
Click to expand...

Which leads us to an Anderson 22 for the price of a bag of peanuts & Seajet crowing on about it's virtues !!!
 
Daydream believer said:
Which leads us to an Anderson 22 for the price of a bag of peanuts & Seajet crowing on about it's virtues !!!
Click to expand...

Not really comparing like with like.. :D So slightly more on the mark - why would you buy a new Harber over a second hand Cox Master Mariner (quick look on eBay shows one for £8K).. I don't think anyone would actually want to trail a Haber?? Lots of change in difference to spend on getting the Cox up to spec?
 
Fantasie 19 said:
the only downside is the price.. who's going to pay the better part of £40K for a 20 foot boat? I need loads of rich people to buy them so there's a healthy second hand market in a few years time.. :encouragement:
Click to expand...

Well, looking at Cornish Crabbers there are enough people wanting to spend a lot more than that (£71950 according to their website) on a 22 footer...
 
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Fantasie 19 said:
Indeed - the review from David Harding (??... knows his onions, either way) was fairly glowing, and specifically mentioned that it handled well in a blow...
Click to expand...

Of course, I would not question David Harding and I have not been on the boat itself.
However, seeing how the boat heeled on a flat sea in one of the videos on Youtube it seems to me that the boat is very tender and I would not like to be on one during a blow on an open sea passage. The very low ballast ratio and the shape of the hull do not help much in static stability, let alone in gusty conditions in the Med where I sail.
Just my opinion FWIW.
 
Although I love sailing and being on boats, I resisted the temptation to buy a 32-35 footer after sailing on other folks' big boats and chartering - and I'm very glad I did. There's always at least one piece of gear not working and several needing replaced, and the expense, hassle, and potential dangers appear to increase exponentially with waterline length. They're great for those who want to do nothing else but coastal and distance sailing, with stimulating maintenance challenges in port and occasional forays with spanners into enclosed spaces smelling nauseatingly of diesel in rolly weather. Tropical 'paradise' sailing removes the cold but adds more difficult and expensive maintenance and faster degradation of the gear - and when you need to fix it you can bet it's unpleasantly hot. I was also lucky enough to discover at an early stage that I get bored when I can't see land. Watching the yacht market in recent years, it seems that the demand for this size boat is decreasing although the hulls don't evaporate or fail their MOT, so we might have already hit 'peak boat', with more AWBs around than there are buyers. Anecdotal evidence from friends who have taken years not to sell their 35-45ft boats even after huge price reductions appears to confirm that. On the other hand, good Cornish Shrimpers and Hawk 20s lose value relatively slowly - dunno whether that's due to the size of the boat or the size of the owners' wallets, but there it is.

So, I'm buying a flat in Falmouth and a small 19-22ft boat for estuary and local coastal day sailing. My long suffering crew and life mate didn't appreciate the stimulating effects of a litre or two of spray in the face on our old Hawk 20 even in Antigua, so she's not going to be too keen in UK. That means the obvious choice of a small exposed popular cabin gaffer like a Shrimper, or a faster modern open boat like a Hawk or BayRaider, will result in more solo sailing than I like. Enter Haber with their small shallow draft boats with 6' headroom (albeit in a limited area), a chemical heads you can enter without advanced yoga training, and a cabin you can sit in and watch the world from large windows, rather than peering through a 4" porthole. I can tell you from experience that internal ballast boats need not be tender (the Hawk 20 is as stiff as a church), and this little Haber has an AVS of 140 degrees, more than most 35' AWBs. I'd bet a small sum that the Haber 620 is as quick and points as high as a Shrimper in my very average hands. She will, like the Hawk, float in a puddle, and hitting sand or mud involves nothing more dramatic than pulling the plate up and sailing away.

So, what's not to like? The price is the first one - but it's still cheaper than say a Shrimper 21 or an inboard Shrimper 19. Second, the offset transom mounted outboard is off-putting for the choppy water that can occur in Carrick Roads- I'm waiting to hear if they have a well alternative. Third, can the main be reefed from the cockpit? Next, whether that cabin top affects sailing in fresh winds - I don't want to struggle when it blows up to F6 unexpectedly. Last, looks - all boats are a compromise, and this one is a good effort. You don't see the styling when you're sailing, or sitting in the warm watching sailors in a beautiful Rustler 24 getting wet and frozen. I'm going to have a look at the 620 at the London show.
 
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