Dual Morse controls interfering with each other

[Manuel]

I have a single engine but two steering positions, each with a Morse single-lever control (pull out for neutral, fwd=fwd, rev=rev), all very standard. For the third time since I have owned this boat, after applying a burst of throttle to nudge the bow round on entering a berth, the Morse below has been 'carried with' the forward command from the lever on the upper steering position. This leaves the controls in the condition that the lower control is locked in forward gear!! Previously, on each occasion I have been able to dash below, move the lever to the central position and then dash back to the upper steering position in time to prevent us hitting the end of the berth. The other day, I was saved only by the quick thinking and real skill of the mariniero who was seeing me into my berth.

I have fiddled around and looked through the manual but I remember from decades ago, when I last played with these things, they are not easy to get right but very easy to get wrong. The previous owner of my boat did tell me NEVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES to use the lower throttle. As he said, it is quite unnecessary as you only adjust throttle in fairly close quarters when you want to be up and out, not down in the saloon. I forgot to ask him 'why' but I think we have the answer to that. He had probably jammed it, or thought he had.

So I need some help. Ideally I would fix the problem and make it work the way the installer intended it to but I cannot afford any risk of this happening again so I would probably prefer to disconnect the lower control altogether, at least until the winter.

Is there an easy yet 100% reliable way for me to disconnect the lower throttle without any risk of affecting the reliability of the upper throttle? Or is this a known problem with a 100% reliable fix?

Thank you.

 

[scottie]

dual station control

Hi
I asume that you have morse MT controls but you may have any one of 3 means of connecting the 2 controls
morse ds unit volvo ds unit or vetus ds
basically the gear change requires that when you select gear the box moves not the other control
the morse and volvo units use a cable from each station into the ds unit and then a 3rd cable to the gearbox the veus unit piggy backs at the gear box
if it is either morse or volvo they require to be setup in neutral and the backlash in the cables equalled out check the vetus cataloque for their method
to by pass the vetus just disconnect the cable you dont want to use for the other 2 you would require a new cable long enough to go from the control you want to reach the gearbox
the throttle can be connected either as the gear or just a sliding lost motion device used
again it woild be just use the throttle cable you want or a new longer cable from the station you want

1 check is it just adjustment
2 are the control detents worn out so that they have less resistance thane the ds unit
3 are the cables damaged

 

[Manuel]

Thank you, let me give you some more information. The upper control is Vetus, flush-mounted into the GRP. The manual includes a composite data sheet titled RCSIDE, RCTOP and RCTOPT. My upper position seems to be the RCSIDE. The lower control is Morse, a chrome-plated stand-alone control of the style available since the 1960s (but was fitted new in 2000). The manual has a data sheet from Morse, MT-3. I don't suppose that the lower control has been moved more than a dozen times in its life, it is quite pointless having it. The manual supplied by the boat-builder includes a Vetus data sheet and a data sheet from Ultraflex, Italy. The Ultraflex data sheet, L23, is very unclear and lacking in details but the relevant thing is that is says:-

Warning on L23 selector usage

The "L23" selector usage needs precise conditions of installation (which the data sheet does not give)
The running principle of the selector is based on the difference of movement opposed by control lever with relative cables and engine members.
1. The right running results when the resistance opposed by each control is higher than the one opposed by the engine reverse gear on which the selector works.
2. On the contrary, starting the control from one of the driving places, instead of moving the lever on the engine, we get the control lever shifting of the other driving place. (Which is what is happening in my installation)
3. Therefore, when the installation is ended, it is necessary to check the running, starting several times from one driving station and then the other.
4. In case the anomalous condition, described in paragraph "2", occurs it is necessary to increase the lever braking or to stop, with external means, in neutral position, the lever which is dragged.

The Vetus data sheet shows access points to a screw "Adjustable screw friction of throttle operating mechanism" but, of course, the Vetus is not the one I have trouble with. The Vetus data sheet for the lever that looks like the Morse also shows a friction screw. However the Morse data sheet makes no reference to friction adjustment and does not have a screw in the place that the Vetus 'version' of that unit.

Do we take it, then, that this is a known problem with Ultraflex? If so, what is the best way I can either jam the lower control (at least for this season) or adjust the Morse MT-3 to make it all work properly (as the longer-term objective)?

Thank you for your help.

 

[Mehlmann]

This is a well known problem that has in the past caused some very serious accidents.
Control system manufacturers supply an interlock for the controls which locks the station not in use and prevents interference.
I would strongly advise you speak with your local marine engineer and install the interlock as soon as possible.
You may find your insurance company takes a dim view of the system being left unmodified.

 

[Manuel]

This is a well known problem that has in the past caused some very serious accidents.
Control system manufacturers supply an interlock for the controls which locks the station not in use and prevents interference.
I would strongly advise you speak with your local marine engineer and install the interlock as soon as possible.
You may find your insurance company takes a dim view of the system being left unmodified.

It's nice to know that there is an interlock available, but if the problem is 'well-known' maybe someone has details of it? I am cruising at present so I don't have a 'local marine engineer'. Meanwhile the problem has to be sorted either by disabling the lower control or finding some means of preventing the problem. I don't know about the insurer taking a "dim view" of the system being unmodified, but I certainly have

 

[scottie]

d s control

There is no adjustment on the MT control except you may increase the detent by adding more leafspring but the are dificult to source but if it is unused it should provide enough to work the ds unit
if the ds unit is close to the engine you may be able to put the upper gear cable straight on to the box and disregard the MT control

 

[Manuel]

There is no adjustment on the MT control except you may increase the detent by adding more leafspring but the are dificult to source but if it is unused it should provide enough to work the ds unit
if the ds unit is close to the engine you may be able to put the upper gear cable straight on to the box and disregard the MT control

Suppose I simply disconnect the bowdens (throttle and gear) coming from the lower control and cable-tie them up in a loop in the engine room for the time being?

 

[Bilgediver]

I have a single engine but two steering positions, each with a Morse single-lever control (pull out for neutral, fwd=fwd, rev=rev), all very standard. For the third time since I have owned this boat, after applying a burst of throttle to nudge the bow round on entering a berth, the Morse below has been 'carried with' the forward command from the lever on the upper steering position. This leaves the controls in the condition that the lower control is locked in forward gear!! Previously, on each occasion I have been able to dash below, move the lever to the central position and then dash back to the upper steering position in time to prevent us hitting the end of the berth. The other day, I was saved only by the quick thinking and real skill of the mariniero who was seeing me into my berth.

I have fiddled around and looked through the manual but I remember from decades ago, when I last played with these things, they are not easy to get right but very easy to get wrong. The previous owner of my boat did tell me NEVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES to use the lower throttle. As he said, it is quite unnecessary as you only adjust throttle in fairly close quarters when you want to be up and out, not down in the saloon. I forgot to ask him 'why' but I think we have the answer to that. He had probably jammed it, or thought he had.

So I need some help. Ideally I would fix the problem and make it work the way the installer intended it to but I cannot afford any risk of this happening again so I would probably prefer to disconnect the lower control altogether, at least until the winter.

Is there an easy yet 100% reliable way for me to disconnect the lower throttle without any risk of affecting the reliability of the upper throttle? Or is this a known problem with a 100% reliable fix?

Thank you.

CAn you not make a slotted hinged metal flap which can be used to lock the lever physically in neutral when not in use...any engineer should be able to come up with something.

Unfortunately the combiner can use the friction to react against but in your case the other throttle lever is moving due to excessive friction in the linkage.

On many boats a hinged locker hasp can be adapted by cutting a notch in the end of the hasp so it engages with the single lever however the lock has to be designed to suite the particular boat especially if a consol mounted control as opposed to bukhead type.

 

[Manuel]

CAn you not make a slotted hinged metal flap which can be used to lock the lever physically in neutral when not in use...any engineer should be able to come up with something.

Unfortunately the combiner can use the friction to react against but in your case the other throttle lever is moving due to excessive friction in the linkage.

On many boats a hinged locker hasp can be adapted by cutting a notch in the end of the hasp so it engages with the single lever however the lock has to be designed to suite the particular boat especially if a consol mounted control as opposed to bukhead type.

I see what you mean. But would immobilising the lever necessarily prevent the mechanism from 'engaging'? It would presumably depend on how much play there is in the Morse control mechanism?

 

[NevilleB]

Manuel,

I have exactly the same problem. Mine is an older 41 ft powerboat, which I have just bought. It needs alot of work.

The lower helm morse lever was disconnected when I bought it, and I had a shipyard attach the cables yesterday. I Bought it back to the marina, and as I was maneuvering it last night it jammed in gear, almost colliding with another vessel.

Originally there was a contraption over the lower helm lever that looked like some sort of "kiddy lock" to prevent interference. I now think that this is what BilgeDiver is referring to - it has a hinged clasp on it. However, even though I have reinstalled this and it locks the lower lever in neutral, it still has enough movement that it can jam.

By the way, today I disconnected the cable from the lower helm at the DS unit. Unfortunately this by itself does not allow any gear selection from the other station - if you disconnect one then the other needs to go directly to the gearbox and not throught he DS unit.

Any advice is appreciated, and feel free to PM me directly. If I find a fix here I will do the same.

Neville.

 

[Manuel]

NevilleB, thank you for that. I am worried that a locking clasp on the lever will still allow enough movement in the mechanism to cause a problem. It might, but then it might not. I would rather have a permanent 'jam'. I was of half a mind to pour a few ccs of Araldite over the gubbins. In my case the lower throttle is completely pointless as you would always run up to see what was happening. It isn't like a flying bridge situation where it can take some time to get up a spiral staircase. I am going to have a play around this afternoon. I will see if there is some way I can put a bolt through the lower lever. Maybe just drill a hole right through an appropriate place and put a long bolt or some studding through. I realised later that disconnecting the cable to the lower lever would not help. It has to be locked physically and as close to the DS unit as possible.

It is an utterly absurd concept. What possessed anyone to come up with such a daft and dangerous scheme? I'll let you know how I get on but have to take SWIAO out shortly.

 

[Bilgediver]

Any advice is appreciated, and feel free to PM me directly. If I find a fix here I will do the same.

Neville.

The only boat I have experience of this sytem is a Trojan 32 Solitaire ( A beer to the first who can name the owner)

It struck me it was a dodgy sytem and there had to be no free play in any linkages and the combiner thingy had to be exactly in the mid position when all helms were in mid position. There is a definite risk of some sytems allowing the out of use lever to move instead or as well as the gear or throttle if the linkage has free movement and or the linkage requires adjusting.

I would certainly suggest a locking mechanism on the out of use lever and then ensure the combining thingy is in the correct position when the two levers are in neutral. I think Solitaire was Teleflex and all this was open linkage systems just like the back of a single lever system.

The other alternative is to fit a direct teleflex from the upper helm by passing the combining unit if you don t think you will ever need it.

I expect you will need to buy new cables as non of yours will be long enough to use.

 

[NevilleB]

This afternoon I disconnected the lower helm cable at the DS unit, moved the Ds unit a couple of inches aft, then connected the remaining cable directly to the gear shift lever. It works, and should be far more reliable than the DS unit.

I am going to remove it altogether and reinstall the old system, and then connect a series system with dual "Single action" levers, instead of the dual action lever that I currently have.

Have a quick look at the FAQ's on this page : http://www.teleflexmorse-eu.com/contactarea/faq/index/controlsandcables?TFLXSESSIONID=5c1e506ae3d8abcd2188d317ab7440f3

I have the engineer who installed the system coming over tomorrow to have a look at it.

Will keep you posted.

 

[Bilgediver]

This afternoon I disconnected the lower helm cable at the DS unit, moved the Ds unit a couple of inches aft, then connected the remaining cable directly to the gear shift lever. It works, and should be far more reliable than the DS unit.

I am going to remove it altogether and reinstall the old system, and then connect a series system with dual "Single action" levers, instead of the dual action lever that I currently have.

.

.


Probably the safest option

 

[fisherman]

I always disliked the 'piggy back' systems, prefer to have two complete separate systems down to the engine, two cables attached to throttle as well as gears. Downside is when you shift one control the lever the other moves also, and if someone has put a teacup behind the other control lever you suddenly can't select 'astern'.......

 

[NevilleB]

Manuel,

The mechanic came and looked at my boat yesterday. Currently it is operating with the lower helm disconnected, and they think I have done it in a safe manner. It operates fine now from the flybridge.

I have seen another type of DS (dual station) connection on the internet. It is very simple - no mechanics to it, and simply holds both cables in position where they attach to the gearbox. this would allow dual stations, with both levers moving together. As others have mentioned, there is some downside to this, but in my opinion the downside is alot less than having the vessel jammed in gear...... ( you can yell at the kid or wife to let go...... you can't yell at the gear box...etc)

Tomorrow I'll look at the controls in town and let you know what I find. I'm in Hong Kong here, and they have a pretty good selection at very good prices.

Cheers.

 

[Manuel]

NevilleB, many thanks. I am stuck waiting for weather and still mulling over what to do. I am wondering whether to remove the contacts from a couple of large terminal blocks (with two screws) and slip that over the cable at a point where it will jam the works. I'll wait until I hear more from you.

 

[scottie]

Manuel,

, and they think I have done it in a safe manner. It operates fine now from the flybridge.

I have seen another type of DS (dual station) connection on the internet. It is very simple - no mechanics to it, and simply holds both cables in position where they attach to the gearbox. this would allow dual stations, with both levers moving together. As others have mentioned, there is some downside to this, but in my opinion the downside is alot less than having the vessel jammed in gear...... ( you can yell at the kid or wife to let go...... you can't yell at the gear box...etc)

.

do not fit as this will NOT WORK

regards