Drunken Skipper charge under the Road Traffic Act

Should the skipper have refused a breath test ?


About 10 years ago a baggage handler at Heathrow ? got run over by a baggage truck, the courts ruled that the runway was a public highway as the public had access to it, the CPS must think they can interpret the case to prosecute any of us on the water as the public have access to the water.

Perhaps we need to consider the same drink drive rules now apply to us on the water as they do on the road.
The Solent is a public highway, what next Raggies no longer have supreme right of way ;)
 
He should not need much of a lawyer to get the charge under section 4 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 dismissed. The Act is very specifically about road vehicle offences, and if anyone thinks that the word vehicle can in the context of the Act be stretched to include a boat then they need to look at Section 34 of the act which makes it an offence to drive a vehicle more than 15 yards off a road, which could hardly be true if boats were "vehicles".
 
Searush said:
Interesting. Only problem is that he will not be able to afford a smart ass'd lawyer so will be found guilty thereby establishing a precedent for road standard breath tests on boat people.
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Have I missed something?
Searush me awld mate
How do you know that:confused:

Plus
I thought the 'road standard breath teast' was already a standard
Cept there is not a system in place to organise it or whatever.

Strangley enough, I have just replaced the blower on its rest
After talking at length to the Man who owns the RYA school I work for.

We were discussing the why's and wherefore's of compulsory training and drinking on boats!

He asked me about drinking on boats because of my huge experience
Of drinking on other peeps boats;)
Seriously for a change.

Last year, I saw two 'incidents' which were drink related on the water.
One was with Jet Skis involved, suprise suprise!

Tother was with a Yacht (no reflection on Raggies here by the by) twas a women 'deck hand' they were picking up a mooring in the Strait.

Skipper applied the 'brakes' and the lady went very unlady like , base over apex into the briney.
Twas quite funny really
But could have been a bit serious
She soon sobered up after I bundled her into me RIB:rolleyes:
 
JKay said:
Lincolns Brayford Pool makes Boating news at last(100 yards from my mooring and I missed it)

http://www.motorboatsmonthly.co.uk/news/452101/disorderly-skipper-in-police-boat-chase

:confused:
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Quote:
A 31-year-old man from Lincoln has been charged under section five of the Public Order Act 1986 - using threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour - and section four of the Road Traffic Act 1988 - driving or attempting to drive a motor vehicle in a public place, when unfit to drive through drink or drugs.End quote.

In Oz you will loose your driving licence if found over the limit driving even a very small tinny with an outboard over 4 HP.

But left alone if you are rowing the same as above.
 
There is no boaty driving licence required in the UK
I believe there is one in Aus?

There have been threads/ debates .on here ref the subject before lots of times.

Some have said there are more probs ref drink boating in Aus than here.

I dunno

I only know that whilst muckin about in boats fer about 30 years
I,ve seen more drink related probs on the roads in the UK than the water.
 
Kawasaki said:
Have I missed something?
Searush me awld mate
How do you know that:confused:

(snip)
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I know nothing. But I can make some reasonable assumptions.

In order to charge him with drunk driving (assuming the report is accurate of course) the act requires him to give a sample of breath, blood or urine - dunnit? The only standards to assess "drunkenness" are those stipulated for driving road vehicles. Ergo, they will be charging him on the basis of 35ml of alcohol (IIRC) which is dangerous for driving a car in an urban environment, but probably not for a boat on a river.

The guy's boating capability does not seem to have been impaired much, they had difficulty catching him. The problem was his abusive language - but many on these fora are often like that tho' aren't they?:confused:

Finnally, most people can't afford a fancy lawyer & so tend to plead guilty to keep their costs & hassle to a minimum - hence precedent gets established by default.
 
They only had diffaculty for a while...............once they'd commandeered a boat a didn't take long :)
the"RIB" is an injection moulded tender,must have taken a bit to blow that up
 
JKay said:
They only had diffaculty for a while...............once they'd commandeered a boat a didn't take long :)
the"RIB" is an injection moulded tender,must have taken a bit to blow that up
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OK, you have local knowledge, I simply read the report;
He then led them up and down the river before they trapped him against a large pleasure cruiser.
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Elton
Thanks for that, at least it's one good point!
 
Before everyone gets too excited about this it is worth considering whether the stretch of water has any regulations applying to it.

For instance, as an example, on the Thames, the Harbourmaster (or his representative) can require a breath test if he considers that a river user is under the influence. Failure to provide would involve calling the police. The alchol limits are conveniently the same as those applying under the RTA. See http://www.pla.co.uk/display_fixedpage.cfm/id/372/site/navigation - Rule 9

I do concede that the offence would then be contravention of a specific by-law and not a charge under section 4 RTA.

It would certainly be worth exploring whether the term 'motor vehicle' covers a boat. The term 'used in a public place' certainly does cover a river.

However it would seem possible that the local authority could, and may well have, designated the river and the operation of craft on it as being subject to the same testing procedures as used on the road.

For instance, the Port of Dover has signeage within the port area stating that all roads therein are subject to the RTA regulations

The short answer is "I don't know" and only more enquiries would take us further.

As has been said precedent cannot be set in the Magistrates' Court and as this offence - RTA 1988 sect 4(1) - is only triable summarily you cannot opt for trial at the Crown Court - the only way there is by way of appeal.

Tom
 
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It does appear to be illegal to drive your boat while over the UK driving limit

It does appear to be illegal to drive your boat while over the UK driving limit

The RTA was amended in 1991 to include Boats as MPVs and to extend the drink drive law to include public places.

Personally I find berthing a challenge after a few beers and haven't tried it for years anyway, the tender from the beach BBQ to my anchored boat might be an issue .



(Note 1)
[quote}4 Driving under influence of drink or drugs

In section 4 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, in subsections (1), (2) and (3) for the words “motor vehicle” there shall be substituted the words “mechanically propelled vehicle”.
Public place includes anywhere the public have access to, if you can get there then you are public ie/ Rivers, lakes and the Solent then it is a public place (note 2)


A mechanically propelled vehicle includes 'Boat' (note 3)

Note 1
see http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1991/ukpga_19910040_en_2
Note 2
http://www.suffolk.police.uk/Useful...ns/Motor+Vehicles+On+Public+Rights+Of+Way.htm
4. What is a public place?
The Road Traffic Act 1991 amended sections 1 to 3 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 and enables prosecutions to be brought for causing death by dangerous driving, dangerous driving, careless and inconsiderate driving of a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place off the highway. A public place might include moorlands, common land or Sites of Special Scientific Interest (SSSIs) and has been held by the courts to mean an area to which the public at large have access or that the public have express or implied permission to access from the Land Owner.
(note 3)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle
A vehicle (Latin: vehiculum) is a mechanical means of conveyance, a carriage or transport. Most often they are manufactured (e.g. bicycles, cars, motorcycles, trains, ships, boats, and aircraft)



Perhaps someone with some legal knowledge can look into this , if its right perhaps YBW could warn readers.
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DAKA said:
It does appear to be illegal to drive your boat while over the UK driving limit

The RTA was amended in 1991 to include Boats as MPVs and to extend the drink drive law to include public places.

Personally I find berthing a challenge after a few beers and haven't tried it for years anyway, the tender from the beach BBQ to my anchored boat might be an issue .
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From a personal point of view, I discovered years ago that my distance perception/judgement goes to rats when I have any alcohol in my system and, as I pay the bills, it's a no-brainer for me.

The other side of the coin is that if we want protection from idiots on the water then we have to be subject to the same rules as they are.

Bit of a bind I know but there it is.

Tom
 
Quote
A mechanically propelled vehicle includes 'Boat' (note 3)
End Quote.

This is interesting, at the Airlie Beach fun race a few years ago the water police parked (with no lights) among the anchored flotila, 3 boats on duty.

As the small craft left the yacht club heading back to their own yachts, the police stopped them and breath tested the driver, needless to say many were booked and lost points from their road drivers licence as well as fines,some were disqulified from driving a road vehicle for some time.

Now the interesting bit......

They did not stop any small craft that was not using an outboard.

We had fun rowing across to the main fleet.
 
Searush said:
I know nothing. But I can make some reasonable assumptions.

The only standards to assess "drunkenness" are those stipulated for driving road vehicles.
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There is another - for canal navigations. Says something like 'should be capable of safe navigation'

You may have a skinful - so long as you can handle the boat safely
 
Drink Drive Ok after all

DAKA said:
It does appear to be illegal to drive your boat while over the UK driving limit

The RTA was amended in 1991 to include Boats as MPVs and to extend the drink drive law to include public places.

Personally I find berthing a challenge after a few beers and haven't tried it for years anyway, the tender from the beach BBQ to my anchored boat might be an issue .



(Note 1)
[quote}4 Driving under influence of drink or drugs

In section 4 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, in subsections (1), (2) and (3) for the words “motor vehicle” there shall be substituted the words “mechanically propelled vehicle”.
Public place includes anywhere the public have access to, if you can get there then you are public ie/ Rivers, lakes and the Solent then it is a public place (note 2)


A mechanically propelled vehicle includes 'Boat' (note 3)

Note 1
see http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1991/ukpga_19910040_en_2
Note 2
http://www.suffolk.police.uk/Useful...ns/Motor+Vehicles+On+Public+Rights+Of+Way.htm
4. What is a public place?
The Road Traffic Act 1991 amended sections 1 to 3 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 and enables prosecutions to be brought for causing death by dangerous driving, dangerous driving, careless and inconsiderate driving of a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place off the highway. A public place might include moorlands, common land or Sites of Special Scientific Interest (SSSIs) and has been held by the courts to mean an area to which the public at large have access or that the public have express or implied permission to access from the Land Owner.
(note 3)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle
A vehicle (Latin: vehiculum) is a mechanical means of conveyance, a carriage or transport. Most often they are manufactured (e.g. bicycles, cars, motorcycles, trains, ships, boats, and aircraft)



Perhaps someone with some legal knowledge can look into this , if its right perhaps YBW could warn readers.
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I have stuffed up slightly which is why it needs a legal boffin to interpret this .

It is illegal to drive a boat while unfit to drive through drink or drugs.(section 4)
it is still legal to drive your boat while being over the drink drive road limit(section 5) as that does not include MPV only road vehicles.

You can drink as much as you like and drive your boat as long as you remain fit to drive.
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