lw395
Well-Known Member
Sounds about right.
So it seems to me that once you have a serious hole, pumps are of limited use.
Drown or electrocute?
- Thread starter oldbilbo
- Start date
Sounds about right.
So it seems to me that once you have a serious hole, pumps are of limited use.
prv
Well-Known Member
Depends on the size of the pump. The RNLI think they're useful enough to chuck you one if you're sinking, I believe the larger SAR helicopters can lower one too. Also during my first ever square-rig voyage, we sent our portable pump over to the sailing trawler Excelsior in the middle of the North Sea after she sprung a plank:
I know at least one oceangoing yacht that carries a similar petrol-driven salvage pump - and this is a boat very much in the old-school "sea gypsy" style rather than modern "cover every contingency regardless of cost" outlook. If they think it's worth having for ocean sailing then I'm inclined to believe them.
I'm not going to try making space for one in our light 34' Channel cruiser, though
Pete
lw395
Well-Known Member
Depends on the size of the pump. The RNLI think they're useful enough to chuck you one if you're sinking, I believe the larger SAR helicopters can lower one too. Also during my first ever square-rig voyage, we sent our portable pump over to the sailing trawler Excelsior in the middle of the North Sea after she sprung a plank:
......I'm not going to try making space for one in our light 34' Channel cruiser, though
Pete
I did say I regard wooden boats as a special case.
I have plenty of first hand experience pumping them...
PuffTheMagicDragon
Well-Known Member
Forget the pump. Get more buckets and invest in something that can double as a collision mat.
sarabande
Well-Known Member
110v is an interesting idea, but requires a heavy/bulky transformer - none of which (so far as I know) are waterproof. A total of 3 connections.
A genny and 240v pump has one connection (at the genny) and some pumps such as the ST are IPX8 rated, which means they can work safely underwater.
Assumptions
1 the engine is out of the equation
2 existing 12v bilge pumps and buckets cannot cope
3 the OP has a 240v genny of the appropriate size on board (for multiple other purposes such as battery charging, fan heater)
4 the leak is caused by an inconvenient, rather than a catastrophic (e.g. being rammed) event
5 water is likely to have small sized debris in it
6 standard kit for stemming leaks is available (bungs, fothering cloth, etc)
the pump requirements are
1 IPX8 rated
2 self-priming
3 decent head (say 5m)
4 'dirty' water capability
thereafter it's a matter of cost, output, and size.
Problems with a petrol driven pump include
1 need to prime... and re-prime if it sucks air for even a moment
2 poisonous exhaust fumes (assumes the genny is exhausted properly already
3 need to go for a quality (non-cheap) one for high probability of starting after long-time out of use
4 it has no use for other electrical purposes
EDIT
ah yes, the use of an RCD device....
A genny and 240v pump has one connection (at the genny) and some pumps such as the ST are IPX8 rated, which means they can work safely underwater.
Assumptions
1 the engine is out of the equation
2 existing 12v bilge pumps and buckets cannot cope
3 the OP has a 240v genny of the appropriate size on board (for multiple other purposes such as battery charging, fan heater)
4 the leak is caused by an inconvenient, rather than a catastrophic (e.g. being rammed) event
5 water is likely to have small sized debris in it
6 standard kit for stemming leaks is available (bungs, fothering cloth, etc)
the pump requirements are
1 IPX8 rated
2 self-priming
3 decent head (say 5m)
4 'dirty' water capability
thereafter it's a matter of cost, output, and size.
Problems with a petrol driven pump include
1 need to prime... and re-prime if it sucks air for even a moment
2 poisonous exhaust fumes (assumes the genny is exhausted properly already
3 need to go for a quality (non-cheap) one for high probability of starting after long-time out of use
4 it has no use for other electrical purposes
EDIT
ah yes, the use of an RCD device....
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bedouin
Well-Known Member
But given how long it would take the RNLI to get to you if you are still afloat to receive the pump the hole can't be that big
Whenever I have looked into this I have felt that the best solution is a heavy duty 12V pump (say 200 lpm) - I am not sure there are many realistic situations where the difference between that and a bigger pump would make that much difference
prv
Well-Known Member
Excelsior is wooden, but both the other vessels I referred to are steel, and the RNLI and SAR helicopters help anyone.
Pete
lw395
Well-Known Member
Let's just agree that worrying levels of leaking might be something to plan for on a wooden boat over 40 years old, much less so on an AWB?
paul-essex
Well-Known Member
cryan
Well-Known Member
A petrol or diesel trash/salvage pump would be the best option. If possible it is even better if you set up an eductor whereby the pump only pumps sea water through a venturi and the bilge suction is taken off that. That way you never have to worry about losing suction or pumps gassing up when one compartment runs dry or floating debris won't stop suction on the actual pump. Any decent pipe fabricators should be able to make one to your spec. Have it fitted permanantly with a wandering hose so you can suck from every compartment and quick couplings so as you can fit the trash pump outlet to it quickly, throw the pump suction over the side into clean sea water and start the pump. Incidentally this rig up would also act as a powerful vacuum cleaner.
Its all a bit hardcore for a leisure boat,, but since you asked.
Its all a bit hardcore for a leisure boat,, but since you asked.
Ravi
Well-Known Member
Drown or electrocute ....... ?or combust? ;-)
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Boreades
Well-Known Member
Err, can I be the naive fool and ask OlbBilbo - Why do you need this?
Or are you thinking of buying a Bavaria and you're planning ahead for a keel catastrophe?
Or are you thinking of buying a Bavaria and you're planning ahead for a keel catastrophe?
oldbilbo
...
The straightforward answer relates to a recent 'event' in a friend's boat wherein we discovered > 1 metre of ocean inside the engine bay, while preparing to resume a trip to Britanny. The source of the ingress was not at all evident, and the priority was to reduce the volume of seawater so that investigation and remedy could be addressed.
I extrapolated this situation - and its cause - to my own wee boat, and concluded that, in event of something similar, a heftier resource than even the Patay DD120 manual pump ( ( £335 each!! ), of which I have two ( don't ask! ) might be 'inadequate' - something else using petrol rather than enfeebled muscles could be a better answer.
Part of the 'musing' was observing the numbers of bloody great heavy trees coming down the Tamar and out into the Western Channel....
Ravi
Well-Known Member
There is an argument that says.... if you find the water is there, you can bail it out with a bucket. If it doesn't get any less, get a bigger bucket, If it doesn't get any less, get a bucket big enough for you to sit in.
So, if, as in your example, you arrive at the marina and find your boat more sea friendly than you care for, how fast you can bail depends on how many drinks you have bought at the marina bar and how many fellow drinkers have not pawned their buckets for a quarter bottle.
So, finding your boat full of water and wanting to dry it for investigation is entirely down to your spirit of generosity. If you are the sort of bloke who never buys a round well, hey, you will have one less attendant at your funeral than your boat! ;-)
However, the forum thread has assumed that you are a far more intrepid sort of chap and that you are mid Atlantic and being holed by Jaws ?4? ?5? 6? (I can't keep count) and having to bail, at sea, faster than the shark can punch holes.
You are looking at getting rid of the water faster than it can come in. How fast you can get rid of it will depend on the number of crew and buckets you have on board + bilge pumps. But, as an intrepid sailor, crew will be unlikely and ... looking at your profile picture .... I suspect that your hobbit wife may have predeceased you. So, well, you are stuffed mate.
But, there is a hope! (Other than elfin magic.) A poster on the thread said that a 5cm hole that is 0.5m under water will let in 300 litres a minute. The secret is to find out how big a hole a shark can punch in the boat, watch all the jaws movies so you learn how to stop them from punching a second hole and get a pumpimng device that can deal with a single strike.
Oh, and .... only hit rocks that will make a hole that your pump can cope with.
Easy.
My consultancy fee is in the post.
Another way to avoid sinking is to sit in a marina, drinking red wine and typing bollocks. It works for me!
William_H
Well-Known Member
Our club have an emergency pump available for use ina box outside at the marina. I had an occasion ot se this on a friend's 30ft Viking. He had a problem with a transducer padle refit and water hard risen to half a metre above the floor. ie so deep that people on the shore noticed the nose down attitude. The pump has a Honda 4 stroke engine and pump with pipes about 50mm maybe more. This kind of pump is common and relatively cheap used for bush fire fighting all around the country. (Every farmer has at least oneset up in the summer ona truck witha tank of water) There is a soft canvas hose for discharge and a stiff inlet hose supposedly with non return valve.
When finally the engine started due to old fuel, the pump had to be primed. Buckets are provided to prime through a lug in the top of the pump. The pump in this case was too heavy to lift down to the deck so was operated from the jetty above. The suction hose was long enough to reach the bottom of the bilge. This pump when finally it started to pump emptied that hull really quickly. (3 mins) So fast in fact that it kept running dry due to water not flowing to the bilge area quick enough. Boat was saved from sinking however.
As a result of this experience the club bought an electric sump pump. (about 25mm outlet) This is far lighter to carry and is convenient for pumping boats in the marina with 240v power available.
it has a much smaller capacity and like a bilge pump the body is dropped into the water. it has a nifty mercury tilt switch for off on and the power lead is well sealed so it all goes under water no problems. I have used this on another acquaintence boat 32 fter also half sunk on mooring. In this case we dragged the boat to the marina jetty.Certainly the smaller pump worked a lot more easily with no priming needed.
However for OP concern I would look at sealing compartments and so providing floatation tanks rather than try to carry a huge petrol driven pump.
Under bunk/seat areas can be sealed so that they can be used for stowage not often needed but sealed enough to provide floatation. With enough floatation the water will be confined mostly to centre of the cabin where it is easier to bail out and hopefully the level will not get too high because of the buoyancy. Of course if the side of the hull is holed witha bit of luck this will be into a sealed area anyway. On a larger boat consider a water tight door to the forward cabin. good luck olewill
When finally the engine started due to old fuel, the pump had to be primed. Buckets are provided to prime through a lug in the top of the pump. The pump in this case was too heavy to lift down to the deck so was operated from the jetty above. The suction hose was long enough to reach the bottom of the bilge. This pump when finally it started to pump emptied that hull really quickly. (3 mins) So fast in fact that it kept running dry due to water not flowing to the bilge area quick enough. Boat was saved from sinking however.
As a result of this experience the club bought an electric sump pump. (about 25mm outlet) This is far lighter to carry and is convenient for pumping boats in the marina with 240v power available.
it has a much smaller capacity and like a bilge pump the body is dropped into the water. it has a nifty mercury tilt switch for off on and the power lead is well sealed so it all goes under water no problems. I have used this on another acquaintence boat 32 fter also half sunk on mooring. In this case we dragged the boat to the marina jetty.Certainly the smaller pump worked a lot more easily with no priming needed.
However for OP concern I would look at sealing compartments and so providing floatation tanks rather than try to carry a huge petrol driven pump.
Under bunk/seat areas can be sealed so that they can be used for stowage not often needed but sealed enough to provide floatation. With enough floatation the water will be confined mostly to centre of the cabin where it is easier to bail out and hopefully the level will not get too high because of the buoyancy. Of course if the side of the hull is holed witha bit of luck this will be into a sealed area anyway. On a larger boat consider a water tight door to the forward cabin. good luck olewill