Drogues, what do you think?

Here's a comment from the Vendee Globe weather guru, which is relevant to our thinking...

"....these lows that form on the east coast of the USA or off Canada can be deep and can follow one another regularly with only 36 to 48 hours between two frontal passages," explains Christian Dumard, the Vendée Globe weather consultant. “And the key thing is this rapid succession of lows generates a residual swell in the North Atlantic. The wave heights now can be similar to those encountered in the Deep South".
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And here's a pic of an 'unusual' wave a few miles north of St Ives, Cornwall.

North of St Ives.jpg

I wouldn't want to find myself 'beam-on' to one of them. And it wasn't the only one....

"At the edge of the continental shelf, the sea depths rise from several thousand metres to a few hundred metres. This rise in the sea bed creates dangerous seas. We have the same thing in the South of New Zealand and at the approach to Cape Horn" continues Dumard. "The problem is that when the boats get into the Bay of Biscay, there is no way out. It is like a funnel
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It is very clear that conditions which can capsize/invert a small or even 'Average White Boat' are to be found in many places other than the Deep Southern Ocean. Some of them are closer than many presume e.g. the Labadie Bank. What you are willing to do in preparation is a matter for you. The knowledge is out there....

:cautious:
 
dansaskip said:
and also Roger Taylor's experience, I know he is a fan of them but in one of his books about MingMing he describes what a fight he had to recover the drogue that he had deployed. Sorry I can't remember which book . Anyway I have never been a fan of backing myself into a corner and it seems in my humble opinion that by deploying a drogue that is what your doing.
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Rogers views here, though not about drogues, but jorden series drogues which are very much for ultimate survival conditions, from southern ocean accounts and the likes of Roger, by that time you are already seriously backed into a corner with nothing else left. He is quite a fan..http://www.thesimplesailor.com/articles.html
I am now halfway through building my second JSD for this year's Atlantic crossing. I would never go to sea without one. Nor should you.
 
We used a drogue crossing the Atlantic when the rudder fell off the boat 600 miles from Antigua. Led it to the port side of the central bow, attached to a long strop secured to the primary winches and spent 36 hours happily head to wind while jury-rigging a replacement rudder. It was fairly breezy but nothing extreme.

The drogue performed well. This was on a 40ft trimaran.
 
Mait said:
Can you go more into detail what you mean by this?
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Just that the difficulty of hauling one in once deployed if you afterwards decide that is not the right course of action or once the weather moderates enough to sail again but you can't haul in the drogue. I know others have said just cut it off but really would you?
 
dansaskip said:
Just that the difficulty of hauling one in once deployed if you afterwards decide that is not the right course of action or once the weather moderates enough to sail again but you can't haul in the drogue. I know others have said just cut it off but really would you?
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The drogue that we used had a trip-line so that you could collapse it. Having said that, it was still a winch job to haul it back on board.
 
dunedin said:
it’s interesting though, there was quite a few of the Golden Globe entrants who came to the conclusion that keeping going with a bit of speed was safer.
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Any links? Can't remember much, was a while ago. Did those that were saying it use a jsd and change their minds? Seems very hard to find anyone who has used a jsd in ultimate conditions say much in the way of negatives..
 
zoidberg said:
Here's a comment from the Vendee Globe weather guru, which is relevant to our thinking...



And here's a pic of an 'unusual' wave a few miles north of St Ives, Cornwall.

View attachment 109819

I wouldn't want to find myself 'beam-on' to one of them. And it wasn't the only one....



It is very clear that conditions which can capsize/invert a small or even 'Average White Boat' are to be found in many places other than the Deep Southern Ocean. Some of them are closer than many presume e.g. the Labadie Bank. What you are willing to do in preparation is a matter for you. The knowledge is out there....

:cautious:
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I agree with all that, but it's about context. the Vendee skippers are crossing the North Atlantic in January and February. Most of us mere mortals are doing a trade wind crossing, followed by a return in optimal April - June. The probability of the conditions described are low; also if you're coming from the Caribbean you can stay further south and reduce the risk of getting smacked at all (in return for the risk of too little wind); if you're coming from USA or Bermuda you can pick your weather window.

To be clear, I haven't done this yet. I'm heavily into the research as I'm planning it with the family next year. If I thought there was meaningful risk of a double-stacked severe storm, forget the drogue I just wouldn't be doing it.

As regards Biscay and the Irish Sea...yes, but typically you're on a 3-day passage, and again most of us are doing it "in the season".
 
doug748 said:
Seems to be popular on the Forum right now, drogues and associated stern gear.

Would you fit this specialist gear if you were going across the Atlantic? Or Pacific? Or towards Australia? At what point would you feel the need?

If not why not?

Could other tactics serve you just as well? What are they?

I am just interested, not going further than Cherbourg and the Isle of Wight myself. ;- )

.
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Crossing to the Caribbean in winter, no. Coming back , yes I suppose. Not sure if I can be bothered.
As said, massive expense, ugly modifications, locker space, and I would not contemplate the risk of my Aries being broken by slowing devices.
Also, my boat's already handled horrible weather coming back from Bermuda in the 60's, the husband and wife crew did ok.
Not for me. Hopefully those are not words I will come to regret...
 
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My experience with tripping lines on conventional single drogues can be summed up as “don’t believe seamanship textbooks!” The drogue once loaded up will shed load any way that it can, and in particular it will try to spin. With a three strand rope this is absolutely guaranteed; with braided rope it is highly likely.
 
A single drogue, also known as a sea anchor, seems to have been improved upon, by the JSD, so much that they are not generally in favour. The snatch loads must be huge and they are one-trick ponies.
 
dunedin said:
Was articles with quotes from participants - think might have been Yacting World and/or Monthly
Here What can be learned from the 2018-19 Golden Globe Race?
And Storm tactics from the Golden Globe Race: Mark Slats - Yachting Monthly
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lots talk of trailing warps but didn't see and mention of JSD. I'm thinking as really no negatives from users of a jsd in really extreme conditions it's a thing to have onboard if there's a chance you'll ever go way out there......
 
GHA said:
lots talk of trailing warps but didn't see and mention of JSD. I'm thinking as really no negatives from users of a jsd in really extreme conditions it's a thing to have onboard if there's a chance you'll ever go way out there......
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Suzy Goodall’s JSD seems to have lost one leg of the bridle before she was pitch poled and dismasted. I recall it was thought that the failure might have been due to the use of a knot in place of a splice.
 
Gary Fox said:
Crossing to the Caribbean in winter, no. Coming back , yes I suppose. Not sure if I can be bothered.
As said, massive expense, ugly modifications, locker space, and I would not contemplate the risk of my Aries being broken by slowing devices.
Also, my boat's already handled horrible weather coming back from Bermuda in the 60's, the husband and wife crew did ok.
Not for me. Hopefully those are not words I will come to regret...
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Certainly there have been cases of wind steering gear being damaged. I don't know how you get around that one.

.
 
Kukri said:
Suzy Goodall’s JSD seems to have lost one leg of the bridle before she was pitch poled and dismasted. I recall it was thought that the failure might have been due to the use of a knot in place of a splice.
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Much more than that going on....also looks like the jsd was sized for a boat lighter the hers after loaded up for the race, ...and she was off cape horn...... With no modern weather forecasting.... it's all pushing the probabilities in your favour..
 
dansaskip said:
Just that the difficulty of hauling one in once deployed if you afterwards decide that is not the right course of action or once the weather moderates enough to sail again but you can't haul in the drogue. I know others have said just cut it off but really would you?
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Definitely- 35 quid for the drogue plus maybe 80 for the warp. Peanuts compared to exhausting the crew.
 
Why is JSD gear seen to be at risk of breaking? Presumably because the warps/shackles have parted on a few occasions, in addition to Susie G's?

There's lots of discussion about open or closed thimbles, splices rather than knots, etc. but in general (famous last words I know..) we don't suffer from many lines parting because we know what works, through experience. (All bets are off if you are a crazy racer saving a few ounces in weight, of course)

A thought from someone who's never used a JSD, but have further oceanic ambitions into more challenging conditions:
Maybe the breakages were due to an over specced JSD with too many elements? How many is enough, or too many? It seems like a bit of a guesstimate?
 
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