iangrant
Well-Known Member
Just wondered if anyone has a view on this topic. I have a drogue and a long and heavy stranded rope but would a para anchor be better - some say yes - some say no.
Ian
Ian
Drogue or Parachute anchor?
- Thread starter iangrant
- Start date
Gunfleet
Well-Known Member
Ian,
You're about to cross the Atlantic with 50 other yachts and a fleet of standby ships, doctors, helicopters and Amex cards. The only things that could possibly go wrong are 1)the gin runs out 2) one of your 27 holes below the waterline starts leaking and your drown before you work out which 3) the gin runs out 4) the wine runs out. Under no circumstances do you need a drogue AND a parachute anchor.
You're about to cross the Atlantic with 50 other yachts and a fleet of standby ships, doctors, helicopters and Amex cards. The only things that could possibly go wrong are 1)the gin runs out 2) one of your 27 holes below the waterline starts leaking and your drown before you work out which 3) the gin runs out 4) the wine runs out. Under no circumstances do you need a drogue AND a parachute anchor.
jamesjermain
Well-Known Member
From what I've read and some limited experience, I would suggest that a parachute anchor is only of value for extensive ocean voyaging when the possibility of caught in a full-blown severe storm is more than just a possibility.
A parachute anchor puts a considerable strain on the fabric of the yacht, particularly the attachment points, is difficult to deploy and also to recover. They have been popular with cruising cat owners because they can cope with the considerable windage and the tendency of a cat to sheer about when hove to.
For general offshore cruising a drogue, which holds a yacht's bow up to the wind and waves, and acts as a brake when running before a breaking sea, is a more flexible tool and much easier to use and stow.
For a Trade Wind crossing of the Atlantic I would stick with a drogue.
A parachute anchor puts a considerable strain on the fabric of the yacht, particularly the attachment points, is difficult to deploy and also to recover. They have been popular with cruising cat owners because they can cope with the considerable windage and the tendency of a cat to sheer about when hove to.
For general offshore cruising a drogue, which holds a yacht's bow up to the wind and waves, and acts as a brake when running before a breaking sea, is a more flexible tool and much easier to use and stow.
For a Trade Wind crossing of the Atlantic I would stick with a drogue.
Das_Boot
Well-Known Member
doris
Well-Known Member
Never used a drogue but have used a parahute type sea anchor. We tried one out in Christechurch Bay,i n a F6 to F8. Heavy to deploy but not too difficult, would have been nasty in the sort of huge seas that would be running when one really needed one. Recovery was another story, bloody nightmare even in medium seas. In post storm ocean conditions, for instance the big hoolie has gone and you are left with big seas and little wind. Need to start sailing but have to ge the bloody thing in I suggest you would finish up cutting it free, absolute nightmare. Tripping lines lines and the like are just tricky things to go wrong and even when they work the whole thing is huge, wet and horrid!! So there!
iangrant
Well-Known Member
Thanks for that - and interesting article - especially the comment:
Even with a large sea anchor the bow of a modern yacht will tend to yaw away from the wind when the towline goes slack as it will when the boat passes through the trough of the wave. For these reasons the use of a sea anchor deployed from the bow is not recommended.
Not sure what the Manufacturers' make of that, probably not done much for their sales fugures!
I'll stick with me drogue
Ian
Even with a large sea anchor the bow of a modern yacht will tend to yaw away from the wind when the towline goes slack as it will when the boat passes through the trough of the wave. For these reasons the use of a sea anchor deployed from the bow is not recommended.
Not sure what the Manufacturers' make of that, probably not done much for their sales fugures!
I'll stick with me drogue
Ian
BlueSkyNick
Well-Known Member
How long is your long and heavy stranded rope?
We haven't got anything just for this purpose, and maybe need to consider getting something. I would tie a few other warps together if needs be.
Anybody know if there a recommended length/weight proportional to the boat's displacement?
We haven't got anything just for this purpose, and maybe need to consider getting something. I would tie a few other warps together if needs be.
Anybody know if there a recommended length/weight proportional to the boat's displacement?
boatmike
Well-Known Member
I don't want to appear in any way dismissive but this is a subject where everyone has an opinion but very few have deployed one.
The drogue is a useful tool, especially for fast boats and catamarans that have a tendancy to race off downwind or broach under bare poles. I have in fact been very glad to have one aboard on a multihull several times but have only deployed it in open ocean conditions twice as survival gear when the boat had a tendancy to broach under bare poles in very (and I mean very) heavy seas. I tried deploying a proper sea anchor from the bows but could never get it to work properly. The length of warp is critical in relation to wave pitch and I nearly sank the boat until I gave up and ran off down wind and deployed the drogue to slow me down. Thats easy. Sea anchors aren't.
Personally if I had a heavy long keeled monohull I wouldn't bother with either, but a lightweight fin keeler (especially a beamy modern racer) I would always have a drogue and it's standard equipment on my cat. I have perfected a technique which works for me in heavy weather that allows me to sit comparatively comfortably in rough conditions with a storm jib the size of a pocket hankie and a drogue deployed behind on a bridle. Used like this it's not survival gear its an adjunct to good seamanship and comfort. It needs practice though so don't wait like I did with my sea anchor until you need it. Practice with it in calmer conditions (say F6-8) first. You will be surprised!
The drogue is a useful tool, especially for fast boats and catamarans that have a tendancy to race off downwind or broach under bare poles. I have in fact been very glad to have one aboard on a multihull several times but have only deployed it in open ocean conditions twice as survival gear when the boat had a tendancy to broach under bare poles in very (and I mean very) heavy seas. I tried deploying a proper sea anchor from the bows but could never get it to work properly. The length of warp is critical in relation to wave pitch and I nearly sank the boat until I gave up and ran off down wind and deployed the drogue to slow me down. Thats easy. Sea anchors aren't.
Personally if I had a heavy long keeled monohull I wouldn't bother with either, but a lightweight fin keeler (especially a beamy modern racer) I would always have a drogue and it's standard equipment on my cat. I have perfected a technique which works for me in heavy weather that allows me to sit comparatively comfortably in rough conditions with a storm jib the size of a pocket hankie and a drogue deployed behind on a bridle. Used like this it's not survival gear its an adjunct to good seamanship and comfort. It needs practice though so don't wait like I did with my sea anchor until you need it. Practice with it in calmer conditions (say F6-8) first. You will be surprised!
ParaHandy
Well-Known Member
i've no experience of either but was thinking abt one or other so did some investigating. A parachute anchor seems to be the least safe in the extreme conditions where you might deploy one for quite surprising, but entirely logical reasons.
a) nylon has to be used to attach the thing (obviously) but the warp tends to break. I ought to know why this is but my best guess is and this partly because most reports indicate that the break occurs within the relatively short length that the warp is out of the water, is that sufficient heat from the constant stretching and relaxation de-polymerises the nylon through heat and it starts to break down. Some report a pungent, acidic, deposit when this happens and that supports my theory.
b) ideally the warp has to remain in constant tension but this seems to me to be impossible. if the boat surfs down a wave, her bow may turn broadside to the sea which is not what you want. Nylon will stretch, up to 30%, and over the appropriate length of warp, when the weight comes off the warp, you have 30', and more, slack which will also allow the boat's heading to be uncontrolled
c) the direction you are being held to may not be ideal if the sea is running at any angle to the bow. Pardey and others recomend a bridle taken back to amidships to try and swing the bow into the sea but i'm not sure the attachment at the bow will withstand such a load. On a catamaran, this is relatively easy.
On the other hand, a series drogue and running seems a better bet ...
Hope this helps ...
a) nylon has to be used to attach the thing (obviously) but the warp tends to break. I ought to know why this is but my best guess is and this partly because most reports indicate that the break occurs within the relatively short length that the warp is out of the water, is that sufficient heat from the constant stretching and relaxation de-polymerises the nylon through heat and it starts to break down. Some report a pungent, acidic, deposit when this happens and that supports my theory.
b) ideally the warp has to remain in constant tension but this seems to me to be impossible. if the boat surfs down a wave, her bow may turn broadside to the sea which is not what you want. Nylon will stretch, up to 30%, and over the appropriate length of warp, when the weight comes off the warp, you have 30', and more, slack which will also allow the boat's heading to be uncontrolled
c) the direction you are being held to may not be ideal if the sea is running at any angle to the bow. Pardey and others recomend a bridle taken back to amidships to try and swing the bow into the sea but i'm not sure the attachment at the bow will withstand such a load. On a catamaran, this is relatively easy.
On the other hand, a series drogue and running seems a better bet ...
Hope this helps ...
Viking
Well-Known Member
Never used either, but I think I would soon man-handle a drogue of the stern and the relative 'safety' of the cockpit, then off an 'exposed' bow in a blow! Either myself or a member of the crew.
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
The ideal is to have both as they serve different purposes. The drogue is to prevent excessive downwind speed when running before a blow. It would probably lift the bow a few degrees when lying ahull but won't keep you bows-on in survival conditions.
A parachute anchor is designed only to hold the bows into extreme conditions so would probably be a better bet than a drogue under ultimate conditions.
In severe but not survival conditions, running off with a drogue will probably be easier. If there is a lee shore to contend with the drogue will be useless.
I have read the coastguard report and I recall that it dismissed parachutes in a sentence without evidence to back it up.
A properly assembled sea anchor has a heavy swivel and a length of chain at the end of the chute lines so, once the strain comes off the warp it tends to sink, leaving the recovery buoy floating above it. You then motor up to the buoy and pull the whole kit aboard using the line which is attached to the crown of the chute. Any attempt to recover by pulling on the warp is doomed.
And if you're going on the ARC, you might end up using the parachute as a spare spinnaker - when we went, every boat that flew a spinnaker blew it out. Some as many as three!
A parachute anchor is designed only to hold the bows into extreme conditions so would probably be a better bet than a drogue under ultimate conditions.
In severe but not survival conditions, running off with a drogue will probably be easier. If there is a lee shore to contend with the drogue will be useless.
I have read the coastguard report and I recall that it dismissed parachutes in a sentence without evidence to back it up.
A properly assembled sea anchor has a heavy swivel and a length of chain at the end of the chute lines so, once the strain comes off the warp it tends to sink, leaving the recovery buoy floating above it. You then motor up to the buoy and pull the whole kit aboard using the line which is attached to the crown of the chute. Any attempt to recover by pulling on the warp is doomed.
And if you're going on the ARC, you might end up using the parachute as a spare spinnaker - when we went, every boat that flew a spinnaker blew it out. Some as many as three!
Peppermint
Well-Known Member
Re: It\'s a different game.
As I think the best way to safety in storm conditions is to keep the boat moving I think you'll do better with the drogue from the stern rather than the sea anchor from the bow.
I'd have thought your boat would heave or lie ahull at a decent angle without using either, with a bit of balancing up.
There's something approaching "putting your soul in the care of the lord" about sea anchors. Once you've streamed it your a passenger.
As I think the best way to safety in storm conditions is to keep the boat moving I think you'll do better with the drogue from the stern rather than the sea anchor from the bow.
I'd have thought your boat would heave or lie ahull at a decent angle without using either, with a bit of balancing up.
There's something approaching "putting your soul in the care of the lord" about sea anchors. Once you've streamed it your a passenger.
Sea Devil
Well-Known Member
Re: It\'s a different game.
I carried a propriatory brand of parchaute sea anchor for 10 years and lots of miles. Got it out 3 times in that period -set it up ready to launch. Just waiting for the next increase in wind to motivate me to throw the bag, warp, and anchor overboard.
In each case King Neptune was so shocked at the hive of activity and the possiblity of seeing a fully deployed parachute sea anchor he either steadied the wind of lowered it!
It was good to have another option up my sleeve - excellent reports from people I met who had deployed them - I hear they work very well for cats so....
I carried a propriatory brand of parchaute sea anchor for 10 years and lots of miles. Got it out 3 times in that period -set it up ready to launch. Just waiting for the next increase in wind to motivate me to throw the bag, warp, and anchor overboard.
In each case King Neptune was so shocked at the hive of activity and the possiblity of seeing a fully deployed parachute sea anchor he either steadied the wind of lowered it!
It was good to have another option up my sleeve - excellent reports from people I met who had deployed them - I hear they work very well for cats so....
RPC
Well-Known Member
Onpassage.com has a lot on info on this subject on this link
http://www.onpassage.com/Safety_Gear/Storm_tactics_gear/Storm_Tactics.htm
http://www.onpassage.com/Safety_Gear/Storm_tactics_gear/Storm_Tactics.htm
webcraft
Well-Known Member
Re: Drogue addicts or Paranchnoia?
From my reading only - because I have never done it - the only time I would deploy a parachute anchor would be to prevent excessive downwind drift onto a lee shore in survival conditions.
In that particular instance as Snowleopard points out running off with a drogue is not an option and a para-anchor is the ONLY thing that will give you a chance of survival.
In all other circumstances it would seem that a drogue is safer, easier to deploy and puts less strain on the vessel. I intend to buy a drogue in due course, but will not be keeping a para anchor on board in spite of the Pardeys' endorsement of this device.
- Nick
From my reading only - because I have never done it - the only time I would deploy a parachute anchor would be to prevent excessive downwind drift onto a lee shore in survival conditions.
In that particular instance as Snowleopard points out running off with a drogue is not an option and a para-anchor is the ONLY thing that will give you a chance of survival.
In all other circumstances it would seem that a drogue is safer, easier to deploy and puts less strain on the vessel. I intend to buy a drogue in due course, but will not be keeping a para anchor on board in spite of the Pardeys' endorsement of this device.
- Nick
Pierrot
N/A
[ QUOTE ]
Just wondered if anyone has a view on this topic. I have a drogue and a long and heavy stranded rope but would a para anchor be better - some say yes - some say no.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ian, I have a view on ANY topic /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
I have no practical experience of using a Parachute-type sea anchor and only little of a drogue. From what I've read the proponents of paranchors to a large extent seem to be people who cruise widely in smaller boats (the Pardey's of course spring to mind).
What may be the perfect solution in a 28' boat may not be so appropriate in a 42'. At the bigger size the strain on system (especially the deck fittings) coupled with the problems of retrieving it if you ever did deploy it, seem to me to be major disadvantages.
Just wondered if anyone has a view on this topic. I have a drogue and a long and heavy stranded rope but would a para anchor be better - some say yes - some say no.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ian, I have a view on ANY topic /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
I have no practical experience of using a Parachute-type sea anchor and only little of a drogue. From what I've read the proponents of paranchors to a large extent seem to be people who cruise widely in smaller boats (the Pardey's of course spring to mind).
What may be the perfect solution in a 28' boat may not be so appropriate in a 42'. At the bigger size the strain on system (especially the deck fittings) coupled with the problems of retrieving it if you ever did deploy it, seem to me to be major disadvantages.
Sea Devil
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What may be the perfect solution in a 28' boat may not be so appropriate in a 42'. At the bigger size the strain on system (especially the deck fittings) coupled with the problems of retrieving it if you ever did deploy it, seem to me to be major disadvantages.
[/ QUOTE ]..................................
They come in all sizes for all sorts of boats - seem to work well on bigger as well as smaller boats although the heave too time gets later as the boat gets bigger.
The recommended way of attaching the is to the bower anchor and let out some chain - so attachment to the boat should not be an issue. Just the same as your anchor...
Recovery is via a balloon or similar fender that floats on the surface and holds the (collapsed) parachute by the outside top. As you haul it in there is no bucket effect with the sea water....
[ QUOTE ]
What may be the perfect solution in a 28' boat may not be so appropriate in a 42'. At the bigger size the strain on system (especially the deck fittings) coupled with the problems of retrieving it if you ever did deploy it, seem to me to be major disadvantages.
[/ QUOTE ]..................................
They come in all sizes for all sorts of boats - seem to work well on bigger as well as smaller boats although the heave too time gets later as the boat gets bigger.
The recommended way of attaching the is to the bower anchor and let out some chain - so attachment to the boat should not be an issue. Just the same as your anchor...
Recovery is via a balloon or similar fender that floats on the surface and holds the (collapsed) parachute by the outside top. As you haul it in there is no bucket effect with the sea water....
PhilipH
Well-Known Member
never owned or had to deploy either but just finished reading Lin and Larry Pardey's book 'Storm Tactics' and they swear by parachute anchors on the grounds that deployed correctly (Hm!) they enable the boat to maintain a hove-to position, slowly drift downwind (less than 1kt), and create a slick that greatly reduces motion and increases comfort.
Pierrot
N/A
[ QUOTE ]
The recommended way of attaching the is to the bower anchor and let out some chain - so attachment to the boat should not be an issue. Just the same as your anchor...
Recovery is via a balloon or similar fender that floats on the surface and holds the (collapsed) parachute by the outside top. As you haul it in there is no bucket effect with the sea water....
[/ QUOTE ]
I seem to recall somewhere reading that even on a small (28') boat the forces on the deck gear could reach several tonnes - my anchor never generates that sort of force. The forces are likely to go up with at least the square of the length, possibly the cube. That means massive deck-gear and massive rode.
The recommended way of attaching the is to the bower anchor and let out some chain - so attachment to the boat should not be an issue. Just the same as your anchor...
Recovery is via a balloon or similar fender that floats on the surface and holds the (collapsed) parachute by the outside top. As you haul it in there is no bucket effect with the sea water....
[/ QUOTE ]
I seem to recall somewhere reading that even on a small (28') boat the forces on the deck gear could reach several tonnes - my anchor never generates that sort of force. The forces are likely to go up with at least the square of the length, possibly the cube. That means massive deck-gear and massive rode.
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
my foredeck cleats are far more massively mounted than the ones on the afterdeck. i'd be much more worried about hanging a big load on an afterdeck cleat.
my deployment plan for the parachute involves spreading the load over the foredeck cleats and the roots of the forward crossbeam.
Another point made about parachutes is that the bow is designed to push through rough water, the stern is not.
my deployment plan for the parachute involves spreading the load over the foredeck cleats and the roots of the forward crossbeam.
Another point made about parachutes is that the bow is designed to push through rough water, the stern is not.