Drinking Ban.....'they' are warming up......

Re: Drinking Ban.....\'they\' are warming up......

I wasn't suggesting that I have special status at all, and yes everyone has the right to go to sea, I was just adding perspective from someone who goes to sea as a professional and as a leisure sailor,

The Col regs issue is a separate one no doubt you have examples of large merchant vessels not abiding to the col regs as I have examples of small sailing / power vessels embedding the passage of large merchant vessels in confined channels.

the point I am making is that if you are navigating a vessel you should be sober, and I cannot understand the objection to this by so many of the people on this forum
 
Re: Drinking Ban.....\'they\' are warming up......

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the point I am making is that if you are navigating a vessel you should be sober, and I cannot understand the objection to this by so many of the people on this forum

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Everyone here would, I think, agree that people in charge of a vessel should be in a fit condition and not impaired through drink, drugs or other factors.

I believe that what most people object to is that we are heading towards a dockside-test or, worse, testing at sea. It's not that people want to be drunk at sea, it's that they don't want the surveillance society that has taken over their work, towns, shops and roads to the sea - the last bastion of relative freedom.

Finally, zero-alcohol seems unreasonable and unnecessary for a sailboat. With powerful motorboats I have some sympathy for the idea of zero tolerance and/or testing, but that would become the thin end of a wedge so I think it's probably best to simply throw the book at people who harm others as a result of irresponsibly dangerous behaviour at sea, regardless of whether that is caused by drugs, drink, tiredness, illness, incompetence or whatever.

It is totally different in the professional world....I don't think it is fair to extend the requirements of a Ship's Officer to a typical private yacht skipper. I cannot see the need to allow any amount of alcohol while Officers are on duty any more than most firms these days expect their staff to drink on duty.
 
Re: Drinking Ban.....\'they\' are warming up......

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Finally, zero-alcohol seems unreasonable and unnecessary for a sailboat

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What about for the skipper of a boat like B&Q/Castorama? Clonking into someone at 30 knots in that would do some damage, to both the clonker and the clonkee. OK, so maybe sailing exclude sailing boats under 15m or similar. What about a collision in a small Dragonfly at 20 knots then? I reckon that could easily kill. Maximum speed exclusion then? How do you specify the maximum speed of a sailing boat - hull speed perhaps? Doesn't really apply to multis, what's the maximum sailing speed of a tri? Difficult to say - depends on how bonkers you are.

If the drink boating rule is a good idea, it's probably easier to apply it to everyone over a maximum boat length, regardless of means of propulsion. Maximum length is a lot easier to define.
 
Re: Drinking Ban.....\'they\' are warming up......

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Maximum length is a lot easier to define.

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You have got to be joking. Not without compulsory registration it isn't, as the numerous arguments between yacht owners and marinas bear witness. Do you include bowsprits, anchors, davits, self steering etc? Is it going to be a question of "blow into this tube sir" followed by 30 minutes arguing over the dimensions of the boat? Not likely. If drink navigation laws are introduced, compulsory registration will have to follow.

We are challenged to disagree with the assertion that those involved with the navigation of a vessel should be sober. In response I say:

- Who are "those involved with the navigation"? On commercial vessels it is clear who is on watch as qualification and licensing are involved. On a leisure vessel the present situation is a lot less clear. Does it include the skipper (even if asleep in his bunk), a member of the crew, all members of the crew?, or just the helmsman? If my boat is on autopilot, is it the last person to touch the controls who is "involved with navigation", or anyone who could touch the controls?

- Which vessels. The proposal is to exclude only those vessels of less than 7 metres that cannot exceed 7 knots. I haven't seen any justification for either limit. My dinghy can usually plane with its large outboard as long as there are fewer than 4 on board. If I am heavily laden on the way back from the pub is that OK. What if I leave the outboard off? I imagine that would exempt me, but could be a lot more dangerous in some anchorages where the tide sweeps through.

- Finally there is the word "sober", carrying its virtuous overtones. How sober I say? Why should the same limit apply to, say, the driver of an articulated juggernaut doing 70 on the M25 in heavy rain, a jetski driver near a swimming beach and all members of the crew of a wayfarer dinghy.

There must be a better way of discouraging those few instances where alcohol has endangered the life of those not on the vessel than introducing this far-reaching law.

Rallyveteran
 
Re: Drinking Ban.....\'they\' are warming up......

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- Finally there is the word "sober", carrying its virtuous overtones. How sober I say? Why should the same limit apply to, say, the driver of an articulated juggernaut doing 70 on the M25 in heavy rain, a jetski driver near a swimming beach and all members of the crew of a wayfarer dinghy.


Rallyveteran

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I am not being virtuous, i just cannot understand why you would want to be in command of any vessel and therefore responsible for the lives of your crew while over the drink drive limit, it is proven that alcohol impedes judgment and whether you are navigating a powerboat or a wayfarer dinghy you require your judgment to be 100%
 
Re: Drinking Ban.....\'they\' are warming up......

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I am not being virtuous, i just cannot understand why you would want to be in command of any vessel and therefore responsible for the lives of your crew while over the drink drive limit, it is proven that alcohol impedes judgment and whether you are navigating a powerboat or a wayfarer dinghy you require your judgment to be 100%

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OK. So you want the same limit to apply to all boats (including wayfarer dinghies) as applies to cars and lorries, but where does the "in command of" come from. surely the limit applies to the crew of the wayfarer, who are "involved in the navigation" of it, just as much as it does to the helm.

Presumably you would like the breath test to apply to bicycle riders too?
 
Re: Drinking Ban.....\'they\' are warming up......

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What about for the skipper of a boat like B&Q/Castorama?

[/ QUOTE ] I doubt the need to legislate for boats like that. If you were the owner or skipper of that monster, would you allow anyone who had had a drink or two anywhere near her?

I am a little puzzled by some of the grounds for objecting to this legislation - namely that the objection is not to the limit itself, but to the imagined method of enforcement. My guess is that its use will be limited to instances of blatant disregard for or ignorance of threats to safety at sea. If obviously drunk people are seen to be boarding a RIB, all that can be done now is to warn them of the danger. As we have seen, drunk people may be inclined to ignore such warnings. The new legislation will allow for the arrest of such people.
 
Re: Drinking Ban.....\'they\' are warming up......

Why 7m and 7 knots? Presumably an official or politician sees a personal exemption thereby. We should be told. And I doubt that excluding ssailing dinghies was the intention. FOI time?
 
Re: Drinking Ban.....\'they\' are warming up......

In merchant law you are a passenger or crew - the same could be used for pleasure craft - if you are playing a role in navigating the vessel then you are crew and should be below the drink drive limit.
 
Re: Drinking Ban.....\'they\' are warming up......

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If obviously drunk people are seen to be boarding a RIB, all that can be done now is to warn them of the danger. As we have seen, drunk people may be inclined to ignore such warnings. The new legislation will allow for the arrest of such people.

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One of my (many) objections to the proposed law is that it will lead mission creep into boat licensing and then taxation. Your suggestion is an example of pre-mission creep, because my understanding is that only the helmsman of the RIB could be considered to the involved in its navigation. As long as one of the group passed the breathalyser they could all get on the RIB and set off with them at the helm. And it wouldn't matter whether that person was aged 8 or 80 - because helming a RIB is quite legal regardless of age.

It is all too easy to seize on an incident like this and think that changing the law will prevent its recurrence. Remember the Dangerous Dogs Act...
 
Re: Drinking Ban.....\'they\' are warming up......

My objections are that as proposed (at least how it's been reported), the legislation is ridiculous.

The reason for drink limits is, obviously, drinking impairs judgement. When driving a car at any speed impaired judgement will lead to disaster, hence very low limits.

When sailing a boat at 5 knots, the impairment that 3 pints over a 90 minute period will have is negligible. I defy anyone to argue that particular point.

However, should I cause a problem after my three pints in a small yacht, the odds are that I'd cause it in a confined/restricted water stretch, and my understanding is that virtually all such places already have laws against drink boating.

Secondly, let's imagine you're at home, royally pi$$ed. You need something from your car, you have no intention of driving anywhere, but the moment you put the key in the door, then a passing rozzer can book you for being drunk in charge of a car.

Again, my understanding is that the current proposals will now stop me from having our customary bottle of wine while in a marina, as I will be drunk in charge of the vessel despite having no intention of going anywhere.

And you think that's a good idea?

Bizarre.

David
 
Re: Drinking Ban.....\'they\' are warming up......

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....my understanding is that the current proposals will now stop me from having our customary bottle of wine while in a marina, as I will be drunk in charge of the vessel


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The good news is that your understanding is wrong. The proposed changes in the exemptions from the law (which exists already) mean that the only people who will now be exempt are those who are not "involved in the navigation" of vessels over 7m or capable of speeds over 7kn. If you are tied up in a marina, on a mooring, or at anchor the vessel is not being navigated and you would, therefore, be exempt.
 
Re: Drinking Ban.....\'they\' are warming up......

One of my (many) objections to the proposed law is that it will lead mission creep into boat licensing and then taxation.

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so what are your other objections apart from the fact you like to get drunk and risk your crew and other innocent parties by your impaired judgment
 
Re: Drinking Ban.....\'they\' are warming up......

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If you are tied up in a marina, on a mooring, or at anchor the vessel is not being navigated and you would, therefore, be exempt.

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You are OK on a mooring .... until you get into the tender to go ashore - then you might get into an argument as to whether it can do 7 knots and who was "involved in the navigation" of it

You are also OK at anchor .... until you drag or the wind changes direction - in which case you can put your granny on the helm and tell her what to do

You are also OK on a jetski, because the law doesn't apply to them.
 
Re: Drinking Ban.....\'they\' are warming up......

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The good news is that your understanding is wrong. The proposed changes in the exemptions from the law (which exists already) mean that the only people who will now be exempt are those who are not "involved in the navigation" of vessels over 7m or capable of speeds over 7kn. If you are tied up in a marina, on a mooring, or at anchor the vessel is not being navigated and you would, therefore, be exempt.

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This has been debated in a hundred threads over the last few months, but your argument falls down if when tied up, or anchored and the weather conditions change during the night and you have to move or reset the anchor, you are guilty!

Not only that, but as anyone can be in command of a leisure vessel, proving who was 'in command' will be impossible to challenge in court. All you have to do is keep your mouth shut, meekly give your breath sample and when your case comes up, declare that your sixteen year old daughter/SWMBO/grandmother was in command....case dismissed. The whole thing is a farce.

I must take great exception to doug748 saying [ QUOTE ]
Hope they had the good sense to target motor boats which are the real source of the problem.....

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Unless all yotties are abstemious, then that is an offensive remark. I will agree that a fast motorboat can cause more damage when driven by a drink driver, but how many crew fall overboard, crack heads on booms, crash into other boats in marinas or run aground because of drink boating on yachts?

Only last Sunday Kawasaki and I were tied to Menai Bridge pier and witnessed seven yachts motor up the straits with sails up and engines full ahead and not one had the brains to hoist a motoring cone, whilst ready to cry, "give way to sail". Please don't tar Mobers as the only culprits for stupidity.
 
Re: Drinking Ban.....\'they\' are warming up......

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so what are your other objections apart from the fact you like to get drunk and risk your crew and other innocent parties by your impaired judgment

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see my post at 1050. I look forward to your detailed response.

Oh, and as for the verbal attack on me, I have 50,000 miles under my keel without so much as a man overboard. It is quite possible to object to this law without being a drinker.
 
Re: Drinking Ban.....\'they\' are warming up......

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This has been debated in a hundred threads over the last few months, but your argument falls down if when tied up, or anchored and the weather conditions change during the night and you have to move or reset the anchor, you are guilty!


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That is true, but in a marina you should be pretty safe.

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...proving who was 'in command' will be impossible to challenge in court. All you have to do is keep your mouth shut, meekly give your breath sample and when your case comes up, declare that your sixteen year old daughter/SWMBO/grandmother was in command

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Again, the law makes no distinction between crew and skipper. If you're involved in navigation, then you're subject to the law.

As you say, you could simply lie under oath in order to protect yourself (just as you can for any crime). You might even persuade your family and friends to do the same. However, if they can prove you're lying then you're in much worse trouble than you were before, and it may not be hard for them to prove (3rd party witnesses, photos taken whilst they were approaching you, log entries etc etc). I'm not sure that many people would take that risk.
 
Re: Drinking Ban.....\'they\' are warming up......

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If you are tied up in a marina, on a mooring, or at anchor the vessel is not being navigated and you would, therefore, be exempt.


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But if at anchor, what happens in the middle of the night, when you drag and have to motor round and reset the anchor?

Please - no lectures on anchor types !!!
 
Re: Drinking Ban.....\'they\' are warming up......

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The good news is that your understanding is wrong. The proposed changes in the exemptions from the law (which exists already) mean that the only people who will now be exempt are those who are not "involved in the navigation" of vessels over 7m or capable of speeds over 7kn. If you are tied up in a marina, on a mooring, or at anchor the vessel is not being navigated and you would, therefore, be exempt.

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akshurley - the 'person in charge' is legally responsible for the others on board, so whether at anchor, on a mooring or on a pontoon makes no difference.

the skipper is always responsible whatever, so he could be done whether moored or not /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

food for thought huh
 
Re: Drinking Ban.....\'they\' are warming up......

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so what are your other objections apart from the fact you like to get drunk and risk your crew and other innocent parties by your impaired judgment

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see my post at 1050. I look forward to your detailed response.

Oh, and as for the verbal attack on me, I have 50,000 miles under my keel without so much as a man overboard. It is quite possible to object to this law without being a drinker.

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no verbal attack intended apologies if you felt it was - I read your previous post - i have also posted many times on this subject my fundamental question remains - alcohol impairs your judgment FACT so why would you want to drink while in charge of a vessel and other people's safety - if you don't want to drink why object to this law
 
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