Dredging the Goodwin Sands

[Seajet]

I am not talking about rose tinted specs, I can think of hundreds of things which need improving, especially getting a decent rail network and a huge amount of freight off our roads; there are grieving families around Newbury at the moment who are the latest victim of this poor infrastructure.

However we have the brains - and money - to improve what routes and systems we have - inc I believe to a small but useful extent the canals - and not useless countryside and history destroying projects such as that mooted for the Goodwins, inefficient wind farms on or offshore working only by subsidies to Cameron chums and of course the HS2 Pointless Vanity Express.

 

[Daydream believer]

and of course the HS2 Pointless Vanity Express.

What is pointless about HS2
In one remark you want to improve infrastructure & in the next you want to stop it
How on earth digging up the goodwins is spoiling our " green & pleasant" land is beyond me
It is just a few square miles of mud and sand & a few worthless relicks, nothing more
If you want history there are loads of places to look but as i said you are not allowed to mention our past to a large section of society for want of upsetting a few foreigners- who could do with reminding anyway

 

[Seajet]

If you don't know what's pointless about HS2 I'm surprised you can type;

Would save 20 minutes for foot passengers midlands to south - never heard of telephones or video conferencing then -

huge cost - people moaned about aircraft carriers for £5 billon which may actually be useful but this is £ hundreds of billions more for somethng nobody needed except Cameron's Vanity Project.

Only 20 minutes faster to London - for foot passengers.

My seriously succesful business chums in Manchester are as bewildhered as to the point of it as we are.

Doesn't carry freight which should be the whole point of 21st Century rail.

Would destroy swathes of irreplaceable green land and homes.

HS2 was a pointless ultra destructive & expensive Vanity Project, clear and simple.

 

[Resolution]

Bit too much thread drift, I think, one could certainly debate these big projects for ages.
Back to the Goodwins.
I don't know them except by reputation, so can someone educate me; just what is so special about them that will be damaged by the suggested dredging? Don't the tides every day or at least every storm shift far larger quantities of mud and sand than mere man can do?

 

[Bob Stay]

... what is so special about them that will be damaged by the suggested dredging? Don't the tides every day or at least every storm shift far larger quantities of mud and sand than mere man can do?

That's what I was rather hoping to hear from an expert myself! I know there are definitely a large number of very old wrecks in the Sands and they ought not to be smashed up for the sake of a few tons of sand which can be got elsewhere.

 

[Daydream believer]

If you don't know what's pointless about HS2 I'm surprised you can type;

Would save 20 minutes for foot passengers midlands to south - never heard of telephones or video conferencing then -

huge cost - people moaned about aircraft carriers for £5 billon which may actually be useful but this is £ hundreds of billions more for somethng nobody needed except Cameron's Vanity Project.

Only 20 minutes faster to London - for foot passengers.

My seriously succesful business chums in Manchester are as bewildhered as to the point of it as we are.

Doesn't carry freight which should be the whole point of 21st Century rail.

Would destroy swathes of irreplaceable green land and homes.

HS2 was a pointless ultra destructive & expensive Vanity Project, clear and simple.

But would free up lines elsewhere for your so called urgently needed freight capacity

Plus 2x 20 mins = 40 mins & i bet there are a few on the forum who would like to knock 40 mins pff their travel time for work. Stick in a bit of comfort for a change & then see who complains. Then multiply that by a few 100k travellers per annum & that is quite a saving in time.
Then looking at your aircraft carrier comparrison it will, when operational, cost somewhat less to run. & unlike our naval efforts might actually work--- eventually. We might even let Bombardier( is that the name) build a bit when brexit finally gets into being and we do not have to abide by eu rules and give the work to johnny foreigner

 

[bluerm166]

I think Seajet is rather missing the point.Getting freight off the roads is exactly what is achieved by dredging offshore and then pumping directly into the site from a ship.
The Goodwins are shifting constantly and I daresay that newly formed areas could be dredged.The scrutiny and surveys involved are likely to turn up any significant undiscovered wrecks.
It does seem strange that,in the marina leaflet dished out to us locals,it states that there will be no decrease or increase in the number of berths provided.You would think that an increase (or specific allowance for it) would be a good idea.

 

[chanelyacht]

But would free up lines elsewhere for your so called urgently needed freight capacity

No, it won't.

For a start, trains on it will only stop one or two times - so the "old" lines still need to carry the local / regional traffic, and the industry experts (i.e. the railfreight companies) have pointed out it will create a perfect storm of capacity in the Midlands.

It also won't help trains on the south western, Bristol / Cardiff, Anglian, Kent, Southern or East Coast lines.

The best investment to get freight onto rail is to undertake a massive programme of bridge changes, to enable double stack, and to get passengers onto efficient transport like air and road.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...-up-the-rail-system-warns-freight-expert.html

 

[Sandyman]

http://goodwinsandssos.org/
http://coastpx.uk/blog/2008/05/goodwin-sands-history

I couldnt care less what they do as long as they do not disturbe war graves.

 

[Bob Stay]

I think Seajet is rather missing the point.Getting freight off the roads is exactly what is achieved by dredging offshore and then pumping directly into the site from a ship.
The Goodwins are shifting constantly and I daresay that newly formed areas could be dredged.The scrutiny and surveys involved are likely to turn up any significant undiscovered wrecks.
It does seem strange that,in the marina leaflet dished out to us locals,it states that there will be no decrease or increase in the number of berths provided.You would think that an increase (or specific allowance for it) would be a good idea.

About the berth numbers.. I always go in the Wellington, it's cheaper and if the bridge times don't fit with your arrival or departure, you can always spend your first or last night on the lifeboat pontoon, which is cheaper still! They are fine with it, just ask.
The Welly has been half empty, every time I've been in there which is a few times.
I guess if the whole new marina is all-tide access, it will attract more punters being that bit easier.
Presumably the prices will rocket as well.

I would venture to disagree that the pre-dredging risk assessment of the Goodies will find all the historic wrecks..

 

[Daydream believer]

The best investment to get freight onto rail is to undertake a massive programme of bridge changes, to enable double stack, and to get passengers onto efficient transport like air and road.

"Like roads"
Just now you were against tarmac-- oh i see --- we will build the roads with concrete. Yeah that makes sense

 

[chanelyacht]

"Like roads"
Just now you were against tarmac--

Where was I ?

 

[Daydream believer]

Where was I ?

Apologies, got your quote mixed with Seajet--- terrible insult i know & withdrawn immediately without reservation

 

[chanelyacht]

Apologies, got your quote mixed with Seajet--- terrible insult i know & withdrawn immediately without reservation

He's a decent guy actually.

I think someone said earlier the only problem was the war graves... sorry, the dead have lived and aren't there anymore, but the wildlife including breeding seals very much are.

We don't own this planet, we merely share it - albeit most if the time, very badly.

 

[oldgit]

The proposed dredge area has been specifically selected to have the minimum environmental impact and avoids seal haul-out sites, protected and charted wrecks and sensitive seabed habitats.

HR Wallingford has estimated the total volume of the Goodwin Sands as 1,120,000,000m³. Therefore the absolute maximum of 2,500,000m³ aggregate required for the development equates to approximately 0.22% of the total volume.

Not sure how many posters here are actually familiar with Dover other than an enforced view of it from the harbour.
It is probably the area most desperately in need of rejuvenation on the Kent coast.
Virtually every other town has some sort of attraction to commend it,mainly for recreation or leisure.
Dover is probably the most deprived area in Kent and urgently needs some injections of investment cash,both public and private to get it out of the terminal decline it has been suffering from for years.
It all fine from folks in comfortable parts of the country to sound off but If somebody wants to spend some dough in the area bring it on.

Rural Kent has 116 of the most deprived areas in Kent; over half of these are in 3 districts, Shepway, Swale and Dover.

Dover is 49th out of a list of over 340 most poor neighbourhoods.

 

[Resolution]

Not sure how many posters here are actually familiar with Dover other than an enforced view of it from the harbour.
It is probably the area most desperately in need of rejuvenation on the Kent coast.
Virtually every other town has some sort of attraction to commend it,mainly for recreation or leisure.
Dover is probably the most deprived area in Kent and urgently needs some injections of investment cash,both public and private to get it out of the terminal decline it has been suffering from for years.
It all fine from folks in comfortable parts of the country to sound off but If somebody wants to spend some dough in the area bring it on.


Dover is 49th out of a list of over 340 most poor neighbourhoods.

Totally valid point. Surely the priority should be to look forward, how to improve, and not just to preserve what others have done?

 

[oldgit]

Totally valid point. Surely the priority should be to look forward, how to improve, and not just to preserve what others have done?

There was laughter and mirth when the derelict dockyard at Chatham was choosen to have some public/private cash spent on it by SEEDA and many objections to building any housing on the site.Especially the two high rise buildings.
The subject of aggregate dredging for the development also came under attack.
It is now probably the best example of how a little seed capital and ignoring the NIMBYS can produce excellent results for a deprived industrial area in the South East.
Have a look at this.
http://www.alanbuckman.co.uk/ipcamera/GenericCameraAccess2.htm
Try getting a berth in the recently expanded marina or buying one of those houses around the basin on St Marys Island.
If Dover could have only a fraction of this foresight

 

[BabySharkDooDooDooDooDoo]

Agreed about the marina, etc but judging by how few flats had their lights on at night, the take up of the two blocks of flats looked rather on the low side.

 

[Biggles Wader]

Dover is totally focussed on the port,mainly ferries but also cruise ships and a small reefer cargo operation.Oh,and a marina.Nothing else matters to the powers that be so the rest of the town has been allowed to decay for many years,and most of it is cut off from the harbour area by the A20 and its constant stream of port traffic.The port makes a lot of money but most of that never gets to the town,even the people who work there tend to move out to much nicer areas because they can afford it, leaving the old town to the poor and unemployed.
However,there is a big new development going on and there is some grasp these days of the potential for the town.It has every bit as much history as Chatham,the best intact medieval castle anywhere,the most famous cliffs in the world and some of the greatest sea views and walks.They need a bit of vision and leadership and they need to get rid of that bloody road that ruins the town.

 

[Bob Stay]

Dover is totally focussed on the port,mainly ferries but also cruise ships and a small reefer cargo operation.Oh,and a marina.Nothing else matters to the powers that be so the rest of the town has been allowed to decay for many years,and most of it is cut off from the harbour area by the A20 and its constant stream of port traffic.The port makes a lot of money but most of that never gets to the town,even the people who work there tend to move out to much nicer areas because they can afford it, leaving the old town to the poor and unemployed.
However,there is a big new development going on and there is some grasp these days of the potential for the town.It has every bit as much history as Chatham,the best intact medieval castle anywhere,the most famous cliffs in the world and some of the greatest sea views and walks.They need a bit of vision and leadership and they need to get rid of that bloody road that ruins the town.

Sadiq Khan may hopefully have some plans for a "Garden Bridge " going cheap, that would help..