Double line reefing to the cockpit - arranging lines at the mast

[justanothersailboat]

My (unambitious 26' older family coastal cruiser) boat has a mainsail reefing arrangement that I'm not happy with. Halyard comes back to the cockpit, everything else is done from the mast with horrible clam cleats for the two leech reefing lines and the admirably simple old arrangement of ramshorns for the luff end. Funnily enough this was just about OK when I bought the boat, with quite a lot of friction in the halyard sheaves and mast slides, and a feeble old clutch of weak design for the halyard that could be left in a position where it could be overruled from the mast foot. No, I don't know why anyone thought this was OK. However in the natural course of looking after things I have cleaned up and re-bushed the halyard sheaves and cleaned and lubricated the mast track and fitted a good modern clutch. This is an enormous improvement for unreefed sailing (the sail practically leaps into the air when hoist from the cockpit and I can tweak the halyard tension easily now til it's just right), mildly hairy for putting the sail away (it comes down fast now) and... now markedly harder to reef in exactly the conditions you most want to, when the wind is a bit strong and getting stronger.

I don't fancy going to 100% at the mast, though I have seen how well that arrangement can work on another boat where it is done well... I do not want single line reefing... so I am looking at double line reefing to the cockpit. I don't think I will need to add winches and I will do all the work myself, so it works out a lot cheaper than in the other thread that's running at the moment, but still in no way cheap. However, what I'm worried about is whether there is a risk that if the lines are not in exactly the right places, that they will end up restricting the movement of the boom.

Consider just one line running from the boom to the deck. If it is exactly under the gooseneck pivot point, then the length of the line doesn't need to change as the boom goes from one side to the other. The run of the line from boom to deck will be exactly vertical regardless of the boom angle, the line just twists a little. However, there's not room to put five lines (two for reef 1, two for reef 2, and the outhaul) in that exact point! If a line runs from boom to deck not under the gooseneck pivot then clearly, by geometry, it can't be vertical at every boom angle - so it can't be the same length at every boom angle. If it is very close then the effect is small, and of course the reef lines will be slightly slack until I put a reef in. But I'm still worried about creating a restrictive bunch of lines that will need fiddling with on every tack. Is there anything special that I need to do to get five lines in that space without problems, or is it less of a problem than it looks, or is it a real obstacle?

(I hope I'm explaining this well enough! if not I'll try a diagram)

 

[B27]

On my boat, the reef lines exit the boom maybe 50mm behind the pivot of the gooseneck.
The gooseneck is (guessing here!) 750mm above the deck.
The hypotenuse of a 50/750 triangle is about 752.

So long as either the exit on the boom or the pulley on the deck is pretty close to the gooseneck axis, it doesn't change the tension much, even with dyneema lines. You've got several metres of line, it will have some stretch.
If the reefed clew is pulled a couple of mm closer to the boom on one tack than the other, that won't matter.

You do need to avoid any lines trapping one another when the boom goes out one side, that can be excess friction..

Not sure if that was what you were asking?

 

[justanothersailboat]

That's it exactly B27, thank you. I think your answer is "in practice if they are all close enough it's good enough". You're right that at small angles, the distance difference is very small. I may be worrying too much, but I never made this particular kind of change before.

 

[William_H]

You should not need 5 lines out of the bottom of the boom at gooseneck. need 3 for 2 reefs. The tack reefing lines should be attached to the mast at a point well forward of track and below gooseneck to make a 45 degree intercept to the tack eyelet when reefed. The line around tack eyelet will get some movement with boom swing but very little and does not seem to matter. Perhaps some chafe over time.
Re the lines out of the boom keep them close to gooseneck. Inevitably the bottom turning block is not directly below the boom when centred. I don't believe the movement of the boom which must tighten or loosen the reefing or outhaul line makes much difference. I use polyester rope which has some stretch in anyway.
Yes do go for cockpit reefing. Vital on my much smaller boat. ol'will

 

[justanothersailboat]

Thanks Will. That helps. I think I still have some thinking to do about exactly what blocks and fittings to use to get the lines in the right places. I don't get much chance to have a good look at boats that have got this right.

ps thanks for pointing out the important difference between five lines needing to go down the mast (2x reef + 2x reef + 1x outhaul) and five lines needing to get through the gooseneck area (only need three as you say), which I hadn't clearly separated.

 

[steveeasy]

You should not need 5 lines out of the bottom of the boom at gooseneck. need 3 for 2 reefs. The tack reefing lines should be attached to the mast at a point well forward of track and below gooseneck to make a 45 degree intercept to the tack eyelet when reefed. The line around tack eyelet will get some movement with boom swing but very little and does not seem to matter. Perhaps some chafe over time.
Re the lines out of the boom keep them close to gooseneck. Inevitably the bottom turning block is not directly below the boom when centred. I don't believe the movement of the boom which must tighten or loosen the reefing or outhaul line makes much difference. I use polyester rope which has some stretch in anyway.
Yes do go for cockpit reefing. Vital on my much smaller boat.

Again I’ve been thing of 2 line vs single line reefing. My understanding is that for 2 line you need for each reef you need 2 lines. The one for the luff reefing eye and one for the leech reefing eye. So two reefs needs four lines unless I’ve misunderstood things. Can’t see how one line can do two reefing points on the leech unless you have to go to mast which really defeats the object of the set up.
Steveeasy

 

[justanothersailboat]

Hi Steve
There are two lines for each reef
but only the clew line runs along the boom... the tack line spends its whole run at the mast end.
My concern was about risking making a not very good configuration at the gooseneck if I don't do this perfectly, leading to tension problems. Will rightly pointed out that my concern only really applies to the clew lines because correct position of the tack line points already stops them getting in the way. I hadn't correctly visualised that myself, once I started worrying about the clews, I started worrying about everything. Daft of me. Still, the clew lines WILL need careful positioning to work well, so I wasn't completely barking up the wrong tree.

I'm now pretty sure I can make a good arrangement for this on my boat. Will measure up at the weekend. With most things about line handling, how carefully the exact run is planned seems to make a big difference.

 

[steveeasy]

Hi Steve
There are two lines for each reef
but only the clew line runs along the boom... the tack line spends its whole run at the mast end.
My concern was about risking making a not very good configuration at the gooseneck if I don't do this perfectly, leading to tension problems. Will rightly pointed out that my concern only really applies to the clew lines because correct position of the tack line points already stops them getting in the way. I hadn't correctly visualised that myself, once I started worrying about the clews, I started worrying about everything. Daft of me. Still, the clew lines WILL need careful positioning to work well, so I wasn't completely barking up the wrong tree.

I'm now pretty sure I can make a good arrangement for this on my boat. Will measure up at the weekend. With most things about line handling, how carefully the exact run is planned seems to make a big difference.

Id not even considered your points. I think I’m going to use the mast ring I’ve fitted and try some lines before I start drilling. My hesitation is fuelled by my inability to commit to anything in life preferring to have a choice in things. I often head out sailing not really sure if I’m heading south or North.

Steveeasy

 

[vyv_cox]

Again I’ve been thing of 2 line vs single line reefing. My understanding is that for 2 line you need for each reef you need 2 lines. The one for the luff reefing eye and one for the leech reefing eye. So two reefs needs four lines unless I’ve misunderstood things. Can’t see how one line can do two reefing points on the leech unless you have to go to mast which really defeats the object of the set up.
Steveeasy

One way of doing it is shown here Single line reefing: DIY system. I developed it myself many years.ago but it is now the one that Z-spars use. Some people will tell you that tangles are the inevitable result but I have now used this method for almost 35 years and never had any sort of failure.
My pennants are 8 mm Dyneema to cut down friction, usually only a problem un-reefing.

 

[steveeasy]

One way of doing it is shown here Single line reefing: DIY system. I developed it myself many years.ago but it is now the one that Z-spars use. Some people will tell you that tangles are the inevitable result but I have now used this method for almost 35 years and never had any sort of failure.
My pennants are 8 mm Dyneema to cut down friction, usually only a problem un-reefing.

Yes I’ve looked at this and it is an option I decided against only due to time. However given we are nearly out of season it’s worth considering again.
I’ve a Selden boom that is big enough. I did wonder how I’d manage the lines as they left the boom to go to the luff reefing eyelets though. I think I can alter the shieves though for this.
Many thanks
Steveeasy

 

[Daydream believer]

One way of doing it is shown here Single line reefing: DIY system. I developed it myself many years.ago but it is now the one that Z-spars use. Some people will tell you that tangles are the inevitable result but I have now used this method for almost 35 years and never had any sort of failure.
My pennants are 8 mm Dyneema to cut down friction, usually only a problem un-reefing.

Can you tell me what the point of that system is. I can see several reasons NOT to use it.
Increased friction
Difficult to maintain requiring boom end fittings to be released which may result in wear over time round rivet holes or screw holes etc.
Difficult to retrieve lost lines if one loses an end and extremely awkward to repair at sea if a reef line breaks inside.
Risk of cars inside clashing unless track supplied for them thus increasing weight
Only works for 2 reefs not a third
Makes it difficult to allow room for clew outhaul to run freely and to be re reeved easily.
Same for third reef
.
Some say that it reduces lines in the cockpit. But does an extra loop in a coil really make any difference.

 

[justanothersailboat]

Goodness me Daydream, what did it do to you?

Looks like an ingenious halfway house to me, could be great for some people and some boats and some circumstances, it's definitely not what I'm looking for.

I strongly suspect that for most reefing approaches, and many other things, the difference between a good install and a bad install of the same type might be bigger than the difference between ok examples of different types. Hence my original concern (above) to figure out the best way of doing one approach (double line), rather than ask which approach to take. (there just happen to be some pretty disappointing setups of some types out there, mysteriously always the fault of that strange creature, Previous Owner)

 

[steveeasy]

Can you tell me what the point of that system is. I can see several reasons NOT to use it.
Increased friction
Difficult to maintain requiring boom end fittings to be released which may result in wear over time round rivet holes or screw holes etc.
Difficult to retrieve lost lines if one loses an end and extremely awkward to repair at sea if a reef line breaks inside.
Risk of cars inside clashing unless track supplied for them thus increasing weight
Only works for 2 reefs not a third
Makes it difficult to allow room for clew outhaul to run freely and to be re reeved easily.
Same for third reef
.
Some say that it reduces lines in the cockpit. But does an extra loop in a coil really make any difference.

Well the above set up I’d assume is the best single line system. Yes there are potential weak spots but that’s dependant on who installs it and attention to detail.
Increased purchase with the use of blocks and 2 lines less at the base of the mast really is benificial. I had decided against it as I did not have the time set it up compared to 2 line but I’ve not had time to do that either. It would be my preferred option.

Steveeasy

 

[Keith 66]

I have just upgraded our Sabre 27 to double line reefing, Originally she was roller reefing from the mast & had at some stage been converted to slab. Frankly the result was a mess, the original boom was too short to get a decent lead back to pull the foot of the sail flat & it was neither one thing nor the other. My wife has two new hips, arthritis in her hands & im arthritic too. It was getting to the stage where the boat as set up was a liability.
Corrosion in the boom meant a new one so i bit the bullet & went for it. Be warned such an upgrade is not cheap New Z spars boom with custom gooseneck fitting, Deck organisers, Bank of XAS clutches each side of the hatch, Two new winches to service them. Miles of new reefing & control lines, Set of splicing fids & learn how to splice braid on braid, Headlinings down & reinforce cabin top for clutches & organisers, new headlinings....
Then you go to the mast & find that a 55 year old spar isnt meant to have all this modern system on it, Remove stb winch base & rivet alloy plate over the mess of holes, Make new custom mast gate because nobody makes one for that section, hand made from stainless steel.
Dual lines for the tack have to pull the tack forward so eyeplates have to be riveted on the side of the mast one side & bullseye fairleads on the other, more bullseyes for the clew lines to the organiser blocks at base of the mast. Mast drilled & tapped & bullseyes mounted with machine screws & duralac.
To get all the lines halyards & lazy jacks sorted & led properly took a lot of head scratching & many days of alterations.
I forgot to mention the new sails & packaway......
In the end i could have gone out & bought another Sabre for what it all cost.

But last weekend we went out, It was windy & it was so easy to zip reefs in & out with ease from the cockpit, Dont think you can get away without winches for the halyards & reefing lines you will need them.

Boat has been transformed & is now far easier for us to handle, she is faster & it was money well spent.

As long as i dont add it all up!

 

[vyv_cox]

Can you tell me what the point of that system is. I can see several reasons NOT to use it.
Increased friction
Difficult to maintain requiring boom end fittings to be released which may result in wear over time round rivet holes or screw holes etc.
Difficult to retrieve lost lines if one loses an end and extremely awkward to repair at sea if a reef line breaks inside.
Risk of cars inside clashing unless track supplied for them thus increasing weight
Only works for 2 reefs not a third
Makes it difficult to allow room for clew outhaul to run freely and to be re reeved easily.
Same for third reef
.
Some say that it reduces lines in the cockpit. But does an extra loop in a coil really make any difference.

Can you tell me what the point of that system is. - because it works perfectly. Do you really think that I would have kept it for 35 years if it did not?
Increased friction - barely at all and most definitely not something a small winch cannot cope with.
Difficult to maintain requiring boom end fittings to be released which may result in wear over time round rivet holes or screw holes etc. - nonsense. When I fitted it I replaced the rivets in the end fitting with Rivnuts. They have coped perfectly, 30 years on this boat.
Difficult to retrieve lost lines if one loses an end and extremely awkward to repair at sea if a reef line breaks inside. - you would need to be incredibly clumsy to lose a line inside and I can think of no way it could be done by accident.
Risk of cars inside clashing - never happened once. 13 summer seasons in the Aegean meltemi, boat sailed from North Wales via Baltic to Greece, countless reefing operations, never a single problem.
Only works for 2 reefs not a third. - True but an alternative is easily arranged.
Makes it difficult to allow room for clew outhaul to run freely and to be re reeved easily. - ???? Total nonsense again.

The big benefit is the single line instead of two. I have six lines on each side now, adding another two (or four) would be close on impossible

 

[Daydream believer]

The big benefit is the single line instead of two. I have six lines on each side now, adding another two (or four) would be close on impossible

I have one for each reef doing the same job
Friction is friction however one sees it.
But to each his own & I have read on this forum over the years of others chucking the system.

 

[justanothersailboat]

Thanks Keith, your account is very helpful. Sounds like you had to do more than I have to (I don't have remnants of a boom roller to correct) but I still have a lot to do. I went through the expense of putting my boat on a clutch system already and so glad I did, I just need a few more the same.

I am interested in your description "eyeplates have to be riveted on the side of the mast one side & bullseye fairleads" - yes I was expecting to have to fit something to the mast for the tack lines, and it does seem that most people rivet that bit. I was surprised that rivets are enough, though I expect they have to be monel? However. Do I understand that line as meaning that you ran both tack lines from fixed to eye plates on the same side, up through the eyes on the sail, and back down through fairleads on the other side (in the opposite position so each line's pull is the same each side when fully reefed) and thence off to your turning blocks?

 

[vyv_cox]

I have one for each reef doing the same job
Friction is friction however one sees it.

So your system has five blocks and mine has seven, including mast foot turning blocks. Is that such a huge difference? Good quality blocks will not notice the difference

 

[Daydream believer]

So your system has five blocks and mine has seven, including mast foot turning blocks. Is that such a huge difference? Good quality blocks will not notice the difference

You also have to drag your internal blocks along the track in the boom and the 2 extra blocks involve a total reversal of the line direction.with say a 100 kg load on each line the middle blocks are subjected to 400 kg.( or whatever) that is not insignificant loading. So I dispute your comment about negligible friction.
I had a dispute on another forum about this so to check first I set up a rig on my bench with spring balances at various points. It showed considerable more friction COULD happen
But if it suits you then that is ok for you. I just wanted to point out to anyone reading this that they might want to look into the system a little deeper . Some love it. Some don,t
I do not see the need for it. But I only have a small yacht at 31 ft. A friend of mine had a new 45 ft yacht and did not know what was inside the boom until it broke. But he still has the system. But needed a rigger to set it up again.

 

[Cptsideways]

I've a very simple system that I've never yet seen anyone else use. Using the redundant topping lift, through a block where it used to end, up to another block, through which a single rope joining reef points 2&3. Works brilliantly. Way simpler than any other system I've seen.

Also helps dropping the sail neatly by pulling on the topping lift/reef line.

The first reef is on a single line and cleat on the mast.