'Don't support the RNLI'.

Re: salaries quite ok, panic over. Unlike the BBC...

But the BBC has a captive "audience" that are forced to pay a licence fee to it regardless of whether they intend to watch its output. Hardly a real world business.
 
the sarcastic bit

ok. forget the beeb thing, re herring . I only put that in to wind you up so forget that.

Now, back to rnli youare arguing on three fronts (or were)

1 they get oodles of money
2 they don't have to go out in the wind and rain etc
3 they are ex-RN officers so are they ideally suited to the job?

1 They don't really get oodles of money.

2. erm,yes, but the people who do go out as volunteers chose that career option, esp if volunteers. That's a career choice thing isn't it? They like living near the coast etc and all that.

3. RN people aren't necessarily numpties at all. They are often highly motivated smartly turned out, selected and tested and trained often far more frequently throughout their career than us civvies, have access to decent workiing kit rathr stuff that might work a bit, know how to put plans together sometimes at short notice. Only a tiny part of what they do pressing the torpedo button or listening to the pee-ow noise in a submarine like in the films. Soi reckon an ex-RN person would be pretty good choice as head of rnli, appreciation of what weather and conditions is like etc plus admin and command experience, sense of responsibility,managinga budget and a team of people and sit up straight when you're reading this Michael, and so on.
 
Re: all comments above

As a long term supporter of the independants, I have to say that the RNLI do a great job of providing rescue cover nationwide. If they use their funds effectively or not is one arguement that I doubt anyone will win. So now we've established I'm not criticising the RNLI in the post.

BUT, they are not the only ones and the biggest fund raising problem the inependants have is that the RNLI have a huge publicity organisation which results in:

1. Most people in the boaty community not even knowing that they've just been rescued by an independant until they're told so.
2. Most people in the boaty community not knowing just how many independants there really are. I heard some time ago that according to MCA numbers, some 40% of inshore boats are independant. Most all weather boats are RNLI but the number of independants is increasing.
3. Almost all people in the non-boaty community have no idea that there are any independants at all.

The problem therefore is, that the indepenadntas are always fifghting an uphill battle for cash.

The busiest leisure boating area in the country & possible the world is the Solent (certainly on Round the Island day or Cowes Week). The rescue units in the Solent are predominantly independant with some of the busiest stations in the country based there.

DON'T FORGET THEM when you come to donating. Just because there's not an independant in your area doesn't meen that you'll never need one. They don't just sit on the coast but provide inland cover for incidents like: divers looking for lost swimmers in a lake, cars dumped in lakes, flood relief, long distance swim event cover etc etc.

Some of these functions the RNLI cannot provide !!!
 
Re: salaries quite ok, panic over. Unlike the BBC...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
according to the accounts

1 person on £125k pa
1 on 95k
3 on 85k
7 on 65k
20 on 55k
Now, compare this with the BBC where the personaal departemnt is biger than the entire staff of chanel four, and plenty on loads more than a piffling 125 grand....

[/ QUOTE ]


It is not a business it is a charity - if it is only about raising money then why are they all RN officers? Not a service renown for raising money.

[/ QUOTE ]

MichaelE,

Why do you care? If you don't like it don't subscribe, everyone has that choice, the RNLI do not strong arm anyone into donating.

As for the salaries, these are not big salaries in the schema of things, these are pretty small compared to standard consultant, IT Management etc. salaries outside of the City, in the City it can be MUCH more.

Having worked for a charity with Directors and high level management I was tasked with helping the charity adopt certain business models, business processes, IT strategy and most important of all effective means of communication nationally and fiscal responsibiity.

In order for a charity to maximise the money they receive from donations they need to manage their strategy, budgets, staff, IT, relationships with the government/Official bodies/Volunteers/Donators and so on.

Do you really think the above is done for free? Do you really believe that in order for the RNLI to manage themselves professionaly they can do it by sending volunteers on training courses to do this part time? Or utilising a volunteers business experience he/she gained in 1950?

Of course not, they need professional help and where necessary they have to pay for that help to reap benefits long into the future.

The charity I worked with did just that tried to train volunteers, tried to inskill via their volunteer pool and guess what? It very nearly fcuked them good and proper. Money was disappearing, Kit was disappearing, there was no national co-ordination and they couldn't deliver anything they were supposed to (And if they did it was via the skin of their teeth) in short it was a mess.

If those salaries are true and that's all they are paying for their professionals for a national organisation then they must have bloody good salary negotiators OR those that are coming to work for them understand they are a charity and know what they are getting into (Hence accepting the job at a lower rate for whatever reason).

It takes a lot to co-ordinate and manage a national rescue service and if it means they have to pay the odd person the going rate or just below it for their expertise then that IMO is good business sense.

I've seen what the CG do first hand when I visited their offices, it's amazing what they do and without the RNLI they couldn't do their job.

We have no idea what the government REALLY do to support the RNLI. I say this as the charity I helped wasn't supposed to have direct government help but the government did help indirectly. In order to maintain that assistance they needed to demonstrate responsible management of their organisation.

I'm amazed you are banging on about demanding to know what they are up to and quite prepared for people to submit questions on your behalf, are you a member? Do you donate? If so why not attend the general meeting and ask for yourself? Better still attend LIBS and express your frustrations to the RNLI chaps there.

However, if you aren't a member then I really don't see why it's got anything to do with you what the RNLI does.

Maybe my experience with working with a national charity will help put a bit of perspective on the salaries. Instead of counting the beans take a look at what the RNLI actually deliver, how they are co-ordinated and how they can survive to help everyone who uses rivers, seas, coastal paths regardless as to whether they are donators or not well into the future.
 
Re: \'Don\'t support the RNLI\'.

"So if you're going to donate money for a lifeboat, why not put it where your contribution will really make difference?"

You wouldn't consider for a moment that a contribution to St John's Ambulance service would make any material difference to the ambulance service or that the volunteer coastguard service will provide the same service as the MCA?

There are many voluntary organisations which operate to plug gaps which can not readily be filled by much larger organisations and do so using much less sophisticated and costly equipment because it is practicable to do so.

You are totally misguided and, if I may say so, the rubbish written about the fatcat salaries paid doesn't mention that the organisation is a £100m pa operation and the salary levels appear miserly compared with any other.
 
Re: all comments above

I would just like to endorse Wooslehunter's post re supporting the Independent Lifeboats, and add a comment or two about other posts.
In contrast to the RNLI, the independent organisations are all invariably run on the proverbial shoestring, and the contributions in the tin can be the difference between being operational or not.
Their crews are not paid (I dont think they even receive pocket money expenses) - they are out there for the love of it - I think it is rare that they are scrabbling for crew when the pagers go off. And the crew are all very competent, and do comprehensive training.
The RNLI crews are also subjected to extensive training as well, and they can now benefit as well from the new Training Centre on West Quay Road in Poole, complete with a pool, wavemaker, authentic sound effects, the full works - its very impressive!
I hope that they will let the Independent crews train there as well (does anyone know if they can?)

I know that the RNLI has received offers of Government assistance of one form or another in the past, and that this was always politely declined - very sensible I think to not want to have Govt crats on the boards and committees!

I started working in the design office at the HQ in 1989 - in those days everything at the RNLI happened in one relatively small rectangular shoebox shaped building (and the depot across the road) on West Quay Road.
The Technical Department was on the 1st floor of the shoebox, Operations were on the top floor, and Fundraising was in between. We (in the Design Office) frequently had running battles (erm, ok, slight exaggeration - constructive dialogue!) with the ex RN officers (yes, they are invariably all ex RN) on the top floor re design and ergonomic aspects of the lifeboats, but this was part of the course.

Soon after I joined the Institution, they started building a diamond shaped extension on the east side of the shoebox - it effectively doubled the office floor space available, and we wondered how they would manage to fill it - but they did......

Later on, the Merck building next door was acquired, and later flattened, and a new purpose built office block / warehouse constructed. The office space available now is probably three times more than what we had in 1989 (not including the new College / Training Centre) - yet they are still looking after approximately the same number of offshore and inshore lifeboats today as they were 20 years ago...... (you can draw your own conclusions here!).

The RNLI lifeboats are just truly amazing though - I have had the priviledge of going out on sea trials in the prototype Severn class lifeboat, where we were going at full chat (25 knots) into a F 7 and a 2m+ head sea - yet she coped admirably with the conditions. The crew needed seatbelts on, otherwise we would have been hitting the roof with the G forces being experienced! The Trials Coxswain had been given a simple brief - 'take her out and try your best to break her' (without hitting the bricks of course - just by encounters with the waves).
He had a hard job.... altho they did bust a few seats along the way....

So please do generously support both the Independent lifeboats like the GAFIRS and their contemporaries, along with the RNLI, and be thankful that there are such services, manned by dedicated volunteer crews, in action around the coasts of Britain. Many other countries are not so fortunate.
 
Re: all comments above

Not replying to anyone in particular, and I don't know why this thread has become an attack on MichaelE, but...

Few of the top people at the RNLI are ex RN, see RNLI Key People , 2 x ex-Army, 2 ex Merchant Marine, a civvy, and 2 ex-RN.

Their salaries as top managers are not excessive IMO, probably more than in many similarly sized public sector organisations, but less than equivalent private sector jobs.

If you want to know whether they are milking the trough the accounts will not reveal that directly - you will have to ask explicitly for information on expenses (average hotel bill, class of travel etc.).

The RNLI need a surplus, not having one could mean an unserviceable lifeboat and none of us want that. We need them to be wealthy enough to offer a first class service.

Changes in law over the past couple of decades have massively increased the administrative workload in most organisations, the health & safety burden, employment practices etc. etc., so disproportionate growth in head office staff is inevitable.

The RNLI do a great job, one of the few national charities I admire. The independents do a great job also, and need more publicity and more money.
 
Re: all comments above

Well!.....................you got hat right didn't ya! (ooooops sorry meant to say "that")/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Re: the sarcastic bit

[ QUOTE ]
ok. forget the beeb thing, re herring . I only put that in to wind you up so forget that.

Now, back to rnli youare arguing on three fronts (or were)

1 they get oodles of money
2 they don't have to go out in the wind and rain etc
3 they are ex-RN officers so are they ideally suited to the job?

1 They don't really get oodles of money.

2. erm,yes, but the people who do go out as volunteers chose that career option, esp if volunteers. That's a career choice thing isn't it? They like living near the coast etc and all that.

3. RN people aren't necessarily numpties at all. They are often highly motivated smartly turned out, selected and tested and trained often far more frequently throughout their career than us civvies, have access to decent workiing kit rathr stuff that might work a bit, know how to put plans together sometimes at short notice. Only a tiny part of what they do pressing the torpedo button or listening to the pee-ow noise in a submarine like in the films. Soi reckon an ex-RN person would be pretty good choice as head of rnli, appreciation of what weather and conditions is like etc plus admin and command experience, sense of responsibility,managinga budget and a team of people and sit up straight when you're reading this Michael, and so on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I must confess I got into this in a fit of total boredom but think it has turned into quite an interesting debate.

1) The money front - In show biz the money goes to the 'talent'. In the RNLI the pay of a Coxswain/Mechanic on the staff is very modest indeed - check it out and compare it to the immodest pay with excellent 'perks' of the 6 top executives.

2) As above - there are hundreds of 'working' lifeboat professionals and volunteers who actually 'go to war'. Make very serious life threatening decisions out in the wind, rain, waves whilst back at the ranch there are half a dozen 'Chiefs' who lead a very comfortable life style on the back of charitable donations. Of course there have to be chiefs.... But .... I would prefer to see the money going to the 'talent' and a more modest salary to the retired military at the top.

3) I have worked a lot with the military - mainly the RN. Some - a few are very smart people - a great many would find it hard to survive in civvi street at the same level. The military have a major recruitment problem at the bottom, the junior rank officer core are frequently not the brightest lights and many retire early and go to work for charities... the senior ranks are a mixture although to be fair the brightest and best seem to rise to the top. Mind you even that is not as hard as in civvi street I suspect.

Of course the 'operational' part of the RNLI is best run (and I believe it is) by ex Royal and Merchant Navy personnelle. Very sensible. You need excellent designers, Engineers, seamen, officers to run a sea going organisation but that is not what the RNLI top brass do....

They pay the lowest possible wages to the people at the front line, Surround themselves with the trappings of glory, respect, money, social status and enjoy the fruits of other peoples labour... Actually sounds like a description of the armed services generally.......... Except they do get shot at.

There is a 'mystique' about the RNLI which is wonderful when it was as 'banjan' describes above - running out of a shed in Poole and organising the same amount of main lifeboat stations as it is today... Interesting statistic. Sure there are all those ribs etc these days.. but none the less - the front line is about the same and back office and top brass have increased tenfold..

The actual operational facilities have not increased but the 'top brass' have become wealthy on the romantic 'mystique' the surrounds brave people who go to sea in appalling conditions to help those in peril.

Far too long the above but cannot be bothered to edit it this early in the morning!
 
Re: \'Don\'t support the RNLI\'.

Why are they not part of RNLI I often wonder? At least with some sort of affiliation so that they are at least resourced with the best possible back up. This need not cost RNLI much, or the organisations concerned, but having worked in the Charity sector, and Chaired a Charitable Trust for quite a number of years, I am deeply conscious of the wastage of resources and serious mistakes made by well intentioned 'amateurs' for whom the 'feel good' factor of 'doing something about it' covers a multitude of shortcomings.

Dont get me wrong: anyone prepared to risk their neck to help others has my admiration. I just find myself asking whether they are actually going about it the right way, and whether they have adequate professional input and support. If not, they risk siphoning off resources from those who really are equipped and trained to get the job done regardless of conditions.
 
Bong !! MichaelE ???????

Uk does need RNLI ..... 100% certain.

Military cut-backs, equipment shortages, Govt. fingers and Beaurocratic bull ...... Let's be thankful the RNLI is independent and refuses to cow to the Govt etc.

Yes there are ex RN people in it ... the present boss is ex RN ? or was anyway. So what ? At least its Marine based. But there are plenty of other people in it .... from shop-keepers, mechanics .... etc.

Oh - and don't forget that SAR is being handed to a Commercial Company shortly ... after Bristows another Commercial has lost the contract ....

It is significant that a post has been made on here by a member of MVS ..... and he has kept quiet about his magnificent role there ... helping out in all weathers in Harbour duties, marshalling at RYA events etc.

They all have their part to play ... and they are all independent for very good reason ... they keep control in their hands and not in some snotty little govt. dept. .....

As another said - maybe we shouldn't be knocking any of them ... maybe we should be digging deeper in pocket ?
 
Re: the sarcastic bit

[ QUOTE ]
the junior rank officer core are frequently not the brightest lights and many retire early and go to work for charities... the senior ranks are a mixture although to be fair the brightest and best seem to rise to the top.

[/ QUOTE ]

No experiance of the military - but sounds pretty much like my experiances in the private sector working for large organisations.

IME being a Numpty is no bar to rising well above ability /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

RNLI? well, if you want an efficient LARGE organisation to deliver a product at the front end (whether it be lifeboats or tins of baked beans) you <u>need</u> to pay the going rate for folk, but that alone is no guarantee of success. Folk just have to accept that part (all??!!) of <u>their own</u> donations will be going into "admin" (and this effectively means paying for holidays at Disneyland).

I don't know the RNLI, but I suspect (hope) that by being a national and large organisation that their admin costs are offset by gains from economies of scale and lack of need for paying for duplication of facilities / services..............but even if not it will still be more efficient and cheaper than ANYTHING the Govt could ever run.

Independents? I have no problem with them in principal.
 
Re: all comments above

[ QUOTE ]
Not replying to anyone in particular, and I don't know why this thread has become an attack on MichaelE, but...


[/ QUOTE ] First, thanks for your very common sense input.

Part answering your question above:

Michael has been casting innuendos about the senior staff at the RNLI without reference to the facts. Terms such as 'fat cats', 'pigs at the trough', etc have been flying around. Comments of the type 'My best friend was in the Navy, but . . .' do not help. These are journalistic tricks, designed to create an attitude at odds with the facts.

The facts were kindly provided by one poster in a link to the RNLI annual report. The organisation has about 1,200 staff payrolled (and many more volunteers) with a total salary bill (including pensions etc) of over £40m, The turnover is more than twice that amount. All this data is transparently available.

Any person with some knowledge of moderate size organisations such as this, and their management, will realise that the top level benefits are far from excessive. Specialist managers are needed for marketing and human resources; these can only be recruited at the going rate. The same goes for accounting. Engineering procurement and maintenance are more specialised skills where the job itself may well be some part of the reward.

Every organisation of this size will have areas of waste and poor management. By all means tell the organisation so that it can deal with the problem. If the organisation does not respond, and only if so, by all means publicise the problem to a wider audience.

A common criticism in this thread is that the 'fat cats' award themselves high pay and perks. They are, in fact, overseen by the trustees.

And another poster has corrected Michael's assumption that this is an ex navy club.

What I detect from Michael's posts is an assumption that managers paid (say) more than £50,000 pa do not create value for money, and perhaps anger at the assumed 'club' which creates those sinecures.

Lets equalise society. Time for the Red Gaurds to take over. Hmm. That didn't work - even the Chinese are going for capitalism now . . .
 
Re: all comments above

[ QUOTE ]
started working in the design office at the HQ in 1989 - in those days everything at the RNLI happened in one relatively small rectangular shoebox shaped building (and the depot across the road) on West Quay Road.
The Technical Department was on the 1st floor of the shoebox, Operations were on the top floor, and Fundraising was in between. We (in the Design Office) frequently had running battles (erm, ok, slight exaggeration - constructive dialogue!) with the ex RN officers (yes, they are invariably all ex RN) on the top floor re design and ergonomic aspects of the lifeboats, but this was part of the course.

Soon after I joined the Institution, they started building a diamond shaped extension on the east side of the shoebox - it effectively doubled the office floor space available, and we wondered how they would manage to fill it - but they did......

Later on, the Merck building next door was acquired, and later flattened, and a new purpose built office block / warehouse constructed. The office space available now is probably three times more than what we had in 1989 (not including the new College / Training Centre) - yet they are still looking after approximately the same number of offshore and inshore lifeboats today as they were 20 years ago...... (you can draw your own conclusions here!).


[/ QUOTE ]

The trouble with threads is that not always do the most informative and interesting ones get read.. The above was posted by Banjansailor who worked for them .... It actually sums up succinctly my views... of course there has to be progress but the 'expansion' of the RNLI shore based staff seems to have more to do with the glorification of the 'elite' 6 or so bosses than running a charity.

[ QUOTE ]
The organisation has about 1,200 staff payrolled (and many more volunteers) with a total salary bill (including pensions etc) of over £40m,

[/ QUOTE ]

What on earth are the 1200 people doing? It is volunteers who man the lifeboats - paid a small 'attendance' allowance. The only 'staff 'crew are the engineer/mechanics and Coxswains of the offshore boats - so what's that? 20-30 and the mechanics on the smaller boats who are staff - say 70. So what on earth are the other 1,100 doing?

My suspicion is it is simply empire building because there is so much money coming in from 'charitable' donations that they must be seen to be doing something to justify their role.
 
Re: the sarcastic bit

[ QUOTE ]
I have worked a lot with the military - mainly the RN. Some - a few are very smart people - a great many would find it hard to survive in civvi street at the same level. The military have a major recruitment problem at the bottom, the junior rank officer core are frequently not the brightest lights and many retire early and go to work for charities... the senior ranks are a mixture although to be fair the brightest and best seem to rise to the top. Mind you even that is not as hard as in civvi street I suspect.


[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, but the above quote shows me that you really do jump to some extraordinary conclusions from very little evidence.

Recruiting? The army has difficulty recruiting enough grunts. The air force and navy have no recruitment problems - each having some 100 plus well qualified applicants for each officer post. This results in a very high grade of junior officer material.

And what on earth is your evidence for saying "a great many would find it hard to survive in civvi street at the same level"? In the arts, maybe. But in addition to whatever technical skills they have, they're thoroughly trained in planning, administration and management - and as a result highly valued in most companies.

Any prejudices here? Someone rattled your cage?
 
Re: the sarcastic bit

I note much comparison of salaries/wages with the BBC. Surely the comparison should be with any other large charitable organisation of similar size, e.g. RSPB, Cancer Research etc. or even, perhaps, the Church of England. There are 2 Archbishops-what's ,their stipend? and how many Bishops and what do they get? A much larger organisation but it might show if the RNLI "gaffers" have got their noses in the trough!. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
Re: all comments above

[QUOTE -- My suspicion is it is simply empire building because there is so much money coming in from 'charitable' donations that they must be seen to be doing something to justify their role. ]




rather like the old Lady standing beside the road, this chap comes Along insists she crosses the road, only to find upon arriving the other side she didn't want to cross the road.



the RNLI do a fantastic job ( i for the first time in 35 yrs, this year requested urgent help, luckily, managed to sort the problem myself ) but they do venture into new areas that previously hadn't need of them, that is until the stats come out to justify the need.

I am still a Life Governor & will always be so . They do tend to unecessarily "Empire Build"
 
Re: all comments above

[ QUOTE ]
What on earth are the 1200 people doing?

[/ QUOTE ]
Do a bit of work rather than guessing, accusing and throwing mud. Read the annual accounts; they tell you the ratios of staff to various activities. And answer nearly all of your other questions.

Someone has to specify and buy the boats. Someone has to look after the real estate which houses local storage. And someone has to bring the money in to pay for all this. And someone has to recruit these people - and pay and house them. You really have no clue about how management works, do you?

Anyway, why do you worry - you don't have to pay. And thank heavens it's not the tax payer who pays either.

Now, how about turning your attention to the managers of Greenpeace, another highly deserving charity?
 
Re: the sarcastic bit

[ QUOTE ]
Recruiting? The army has difficulty recruiting enough grunts. The air force and navy have no recruitment problems - each having some 100 plus well qualified applicants for each officer post. This results in a very high grade of junior officer material.


[/ QUOTE ]

Both the Army and the Navy have problems recruiting soldiers and ordinary seamen..... 'grunts' - I suppose that's the sort of expression that encourages young men and women to want to join the armed forces and get killed...?

There has never been too much problem with the wardroom -- It is way to get to do the fun things that require training or learn skills and then leave. I may be wrong but I suspect the majority of professional civil pilots are ex military - some excellent engineers - the specialist branches do very well... in civi street which is why recruiting the best is so easy...

For many it is a better career than they can possibly achieve in civvi street. They join the wardroom because like joining the church it is a pretty secure and safe lifestyle that does not require imagination or great talent.. Of course RN officers become good at their speciality but the career does nor really fit them for the intense rough and tumble of civvi street...
You should not believe all you read in the recruiting booklets!
 
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