Don't put white vinegar down a Jabsco head

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RichardPerou

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I serviced the Jabsco toilet pump three weeks ago. When dismantled the jack valve looked a bit tired but everything else looked OK. I had bought a full service kit (ouch!) so I used every thing.

When I tried to use it on Monday nothing would pump out. Cursing and puzzled (in the marina nothing but pee, water and white vinegar goes into it) I stripped it down. I found that the valve between the pump and the base looked as though it had had a nasty disease and was totally corroded. The jack valve which had been as tight as a ducks arse when inserted was now loose.

The local Uship chandler replaced everything although very puzzled. Everything is now OK.

I asked Xylem Flow Control. about this problem and was told that white vinegar could damage valves.

In the words of the late Spike Milligan, "What are we going to do now?
 
Difficult to believe that vinegar, with an acetic content of only a couple of percent, could damage anything. The valves in marine toilets are made from either neoprene (polychloroprene) or nitrile, neither of which is significantly affected by 30% acetic acid according to http://www.quickcutgasket.com/chemicalresistance.html

I regularly put hydrochloric acid down my marine toilets without any effect at all on the seals. It is far more effective, and cheaper, than vinegar.
 
vyv_cox said:
I regularly put hydrochloric acid down my marine toilets without any effect at all on the seals. It is far more effective, and cheaper, than vinegar.
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I normally put about half a bottle (250ml?) of the supermarket stuff (20%?) in a full bowl (5 litres), so perhaps 1% overall. I do worry about what it might do to the through-hull though.
 
nigelmercier said:
I normally put about half a bottle (250ml?) of the supermarket stuff (20%?) in a full bowl (5 litres), so perhaps 1% overall. I do worry about what it might do to the through-hull though.
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I put it in undiluted in three doses, pumping and waiting between each one.

When I was researching an article on seacocks for YM I tried to find a way of differentiating between brass and bronze by testing with household chemicals. One of these was 20% HCl. After 20 minutes of immersion none (DZR, brass and bronze) was even slightly stained.
 
SailorBill said:
Hydrochloric acid as in household bleach?
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No. I suspect that bleach might have quite an adverse effect. Hydrochloric acid is widely available in supermarkets throughout Europe. It can be bought in UK as brick cleaner, although check the label first as sulphamic acid is sometimes used. I saw a 5 litre bottle for sale in a local ironmongers this week, for £4.99.
 
vyv_cox said:
No. I suspect that bleach might have quite an adverse effect. Hydrochloric acid is widely available in supermarkets throughout Europe. It can be bought in UK as brick cleaner, although check the label first as sulphamic acid is sometimes used. I saw a 5 litre bottle for sale in a local ironmongers this week, for £4.99.
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OK, thanks. Is brick cleaner OK to pump out into the sea?
 
SailorBill said:
OK, thanks. Is brick cleaner OK to pump out into the sea?
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The reaction between it and the carbonate scale in the toilet produces CO2, water and a mixture of magnesium and calcium chlorides, which are present in seawater. So environmentally harmless.

I do find that treatment with HCl is far more effective done on a regular basis, perhaps fortnightly on a liveaboard boat. The deposits are soft at this stage, whereas problems mostly occur when the scale has become hard. The latter is better removed using mechanical methods.
 
vyv_cox said:
The reaction between it and the carbonate scale in the toilet produces CO2, water and a mixture of magnesium and calcium chlorides, which are present in seawater. So environmentally harmless.

I do find that treatment with HCl is far more effective done on a regular basis, perhaps fortnightly on a liveaboard boat. The deposits are soft at this stage, whereas problems mostly occur when the scale has become hard. The latter is better removed using mechanical methods.
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Thanks for the explanation.
 
SailorBill said:
Hydrochloric acid as in household bleach?
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No bleach contains sodium hypochlorite. It is dangerous to mix hypochlorite with any acid as chlorine gas will be produced

vyv_cox said:
No. I suspect that bleach might have quite an adverse effect. Hydrochloric acid is widely available in supermarkets throughout Europe. It can be bought in UK as brick cleaner, although check the label first as sulphamic acid is sometimes used. I saw a 5 litre bottle for sale in a local ironmongers this week, for £4.99.
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Bleach will not remove carbonate scale as the solution is quite strongly alkaline, not acid. The alkalinity will tend to cause calcium carbonate to be precipitated and perhaps deposited as even more scale.

Not all brick cleaners contain hydrochloric acid. Sulphamic acid is often used as a descaler ( eg Ferox DS2) I've not noticed it as a constituent of brick cleaners but it may well be. Whichever check the labels and the safety data sheets to identify those that contain HCl.
 
VicS said:
No bleach contains sodium hypochlorite. It is dangerous to mix hypochlorite with any acid as chlorine gas will be produced



Bleach will not remove carbonate scale as the solution is quite strongly alkaline, not acid. The alkalinity will tend to cause calcium carbonate to be precipitated and perhaps deposited as even more scale.

Not all brick cleaners contain hydrochloric acid. Sulphamic acid is often used as a descaler ( eg Ferox DS2) I've not noticed it as a constituent of brick cleaners but it may well be. Whichever check the labels and the safety data sheets to identify those that contain HCl.
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Muchas gracias.
 
dumb question coming up.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hydrochloric-Acid-36-2-Pure-5-Litre-5L-/140573774735

When people talk about putting Hydrochloric Acid down the heads - do they mean such as sold in this ebay link?

Our new (to us) boat has a dirty toilet that has, apparently, sat on the hard with water in the pipes and something in the holding tank for at least 2 years. It's utterly disgusting. We are going to have the tank emptied, but would I then be advised and safe to pour this product straight down the bog and into the holding tank before flushing out?
 
ChattingLil said:
dumb question coming up.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hydrochloric-Acid-36-2-Pure-5-Litre-5L-/140573774735

When people talk about putting Hydrochloric Acid down the heads - do they mean such as sold in this ebay link?

Our new (to us) boat has a dirty toilet that has, apparently, sat on the hard with water in the pipes and something in the holding tank for at least 2 years. It's utterly disgusting. We are going to have the tank emptied, but would I then be advised and safe to pour this product straight down the bog and into the holding tank before flushing out?
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That is concentrated hydrochloric acid. Handle with great care and be aware that it will produce fumes of hydrogen chloride gas. Open very cautiously if its warm.

Gloves, eye protection and good ventilation essential.

Dilute it appropriately to use. Add acid to water. not the other way round. Even though it does not get as hot as sulphuric acid you get clouds of fumes if you do it the other way.
 
nigelmercier said:
I had a plastic reagent bottle of this on the boat, wrapped in a polythene bag. The acid leached through the plastic and bleached the label. Nasty stuff, but that is a good price - possibly cheaper than the place I buy my pool chemicals, which is another source.
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Ive only ever bought it in 2.5 litre glass bottles or 6 tonne road tankers!
 
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