Dogs

[SimonD]

To persuade Defra to change the system, I think we have to show that the current system is, as we all seem to agree, virtually unworkable. As a consequence, pet owning boat owners wishing to visit the EU are, in practice, faced with two choices: leave the dog at home or break the law. In effect, the present system creates a perverse incentive to break the law. This, coupled with the fact that the present system is virtually enforceable (backed up by the evidence that, as I suspect my FOI request will reveal, no-one have been caught) means that the risk of importing rabies etc, is actually increased.

I suggest that this needs to be the key to unlock this shambles. Inconveniencing a few boat owners is of no consequence to Defra; showing that their current system increases the risk of introducing rabies might.

Alongside that argument, we need to persuade Ministers that there is a better way. At present, the disincentive to break the law, i.e. smuggle your dog into the UK on a ferry or Eurostar, is the risk of getting stopped on entry and searched. It's difficult to replicate that incentive in the case of boat owners crossing the channel (that's why it's prohibited). I think the options are:

1) as has already been proposed, appoint someone to carry out a check on arrival at a port or marina. Presumably, this would require the skipper to give notice of arrival and/or not land the dog until that someone has carried out the check.
2) declare arrival and submit the dog to a vet within so many days of landing for a check.

Under both schemes, the same checks and inoculations would of course be carried out in France.

The big advantage of the first scheme is that dogs are not landed until checked. The disadvantage is the need to appoint someone to do the work. Probably easier if an existing public body is used.

The second scheme needs minimal administration but has a risk associated with the period between landing and checking.

However, both schemes are an improvement on the current arrangements in the sense that, by making it easier for people to comply with the law, they incentivise compliance.

I'd welcome comments before drafting the letter to Defra. I propose to share the draft before sending and ask forumites to pm me their names and addresses to add. I would also copy to the RYA and CA as has been suggested.

Simon

 

[maby]

Fully agree, Simon. The emphasis must be on enhancing biosecurity by offering law abiding members of the public options that will allow them to travel with their pets, recognising that the current system is not enforceable. Personally, I would focus on the first option - allow local bodies to register as approved ports of entry. This does not in any way reduce the current level of biosecurity - you are not giving a green light to bring in an animal unchecked which the second option would. I think this is a critical message of whatever approach is proposed. As it stands, it is extremely easy to evade the law completely - the new rules would not make it any easier to evade the law in the sense that it would still be necessary for a customs officer or border force agent to witness the animal leaving from the newly arrived boat and to demonstrate that the same animal had been on the boat while it was in a foreign port in order to bring a prosecution. On the other hand, it would give the opportunity for a law abiding pet owner to declare their animal on return to this country and to have the animal's documentation checked. If the marina conducting the checks believes that the paper work is not in order, they can notify the owner and DEFRA and can instruct the owner to keep the animal on the boat until a vet has been consulted. This would not result in any reduction in biosecurity and would remove any incentive for law abiding citizens to break the rules.

In practice, I would expect that the only bodies bothering to register as ports of entry would be the larger marina chains - and only then if they are allowed to charge a relatively high price for conducting the check. I'm sure there will be those that grumble at the prospect of paying Premier or MDL £50 or more to bring their dog or cat in, but they would do well to look at the cost of doing it legally under the current rules. It may well be that only the expensive south coast marinas bother to register, but that probably does not matter - I would hope that relatively few people take their poor cat or dog on multi-day non-stop passages across the North Sea to Scandinavia and if it matters enough to you that you can take your pet abroad, then a short stop-off in a south coast marina really should not be a problem.

 

[longjohnsilver]

Simon, yes that all looks very sensible but point 2 will never happen, too easy for abuse. I'd leave that out.

Please do let us know how you get on.

 

[chinita]

Thanks Simon.

By 'check' I presume you mean using a reader to confirm that a.) a chip is present and b.) the chip number conforms to the one on the Pet Passport.

I am just wondering which agencies currently hold chip readers. Certainly the RSPCA and other animal welfare organisations will use them to identify strays handed in to them. Do police stations (such as they are) have readers?

Again, I wonder if it is worth running this by the RSPCA.

Sorry to be giving you all the extra work!

 

[Nightsong]

You can take a boat out of the UK on your own boat without problem - when we landed in Belgium with our dog nobody wanted to know. Coming back is a different matter the dog needs to be micro chipped, have a rabies vaccine at least 21 days before travel (and within the effective life of the vaccine (normally 3 years) and have a pet passport to record all this. The dog must be inspected by a vet and given a worming shot between 24 hours and 4 days before arrival in the uK and can only travel with an approved carrier on an approved route. Some carriers will provide accommodation on board for the dog, but most require the dog to travel in a car.

The Channels Islands present a particular problem - although the authorities allow dogs to travel between the UK and CIs without a pet passport, none of the marinas allow dogs!

 

[chinita]

You can take a boat out of the UK on your own boat without problem - when we landed in Belgium with our dog nobody wanted to know. Coming back is a different matter the dog needs to be micro chipped, have a rabies vaccine at least 21 days before travel (and within the effective life of the vaccine (normally 3 years) and have a pet passport to record all this. The dog must be inspected by a vet and given a worming shot between 24 hours and 4 days before arrival in the uK and can only travel with an approved carrier on an approved route. Some carriers will provide accommodation on board for the dog, but most require the dog to travel in a car.

The Channels Islands present a particular problem - although the authorities allow dogs to travel between the UK and CIs without a pet passport, none of the marinas allow dogs!

May I give you some friendly advice?

Read the entire thread before posting.

 

[maby]

Thanks Simon.

By 'check' I presume you mean using a reader to confirm that a.) a chip is present and b.) the chip number conforms to the one on the Pet Passport.

I am just wondering which agencies currently hold chip readers. Certainly the RSPCA and other animal welfare organisations will use them to identify strays handed in to them. Do police stations (such as they are) have readers?

Again, I wonder if it is worth running this by the RSPCA.

Sorry to be giving you all the extra work!

I think the only way a scheme as this could work is if the marina is allowed to register as the body conducting the checks and is allowed to charge enough for the service to make it attractive to them. DEFRA will not wear it if it requires an unchecked animal to come ashore, and organisations like vets or the RSPCA are not going to make special trips to boats to conduct checks - specially since it will be difficult to specify the date and time well in advance and it will be one or two animals at a time. I can imagine the big marina chains like MDL or Premier taking it up as a value added service provided it is not too difficult and they are allowed to make a profit on it.

 

[SimonD]

By 'check' I presume you mean using a reader to confirm that a.) a chip is present and b.) the chip number conforms to the one on the Pet Passport.

That would have to be it. I've not been stopped on the UK side coming back through Eurostar, but I expect whoever checked would use a reader. Otherwise, how would they know that you hadn't swapped the dog for another on the French side before boarding? As for who has a reader, I think I'll leave this for Defra officials to figure out the details - they can be bought for £50 to £100 so the cost is not the problem. At that price, I'd provide my own!

I take the points about option 2. It seemed to be an administrative easy option and might be worth throwing it in to be knocked down. I'll give that some more thought but probably take your advice and leave it out.

Having marinas carry out the check might well be workable, but they would need some sort of authorisation to do the work on behalf of the crown. Not impossible, but a bit of a barrier to having the scheme accepted. The other candidate might be harbour masters. As far as I know they are public servants being appointed by the Secretary of State. They already have wide ranging legal powers so should be seen by Defra to be fit persons to take on this work. Worth proposing?

Simon

 

[maby]

... The other candidate might be harbour masters. As far as I know they are public servants being appointed by the Secretary of State. They already have wide ranging legal powers so should be seen by Defra to be fit persons to take on this work. Worth proposing?

Simon

By all means try it, but I would have thought it was likely to meet some resistence - it is extra work for them to please a minority of people that they probably consider a nuisance already - we pleasure sailors just get in the way - they exist to serve the commercial maritime sector. There would not be much money in it for them - just extra work. For a marina, it could be a profit making exercise - they could charge us a moderate fee for the service and it would be attracting in extra business - any marina on the south coast able to check pets through would be very popular with sailors. There's plenty or precident for outsourcing this type of service, so I would not think it was much of a barrier if you can find someone in the civil service to take the idea seriously.

 

[chinita]

By all means try it, but I would have thought it was likely to meet some resistence - it is extra work for them to please a minority of people that they probably consider a nuisance already - we pleasure sailors just get in the way - they exist to serve the commercial maritime sector. There would not be much money in it for them - just extra work. For a marina, it could be a profit making exercise - they could charge us a moderate fee for the service and it would be attracting in extra business - any marina on the south coast able to check pets through would be very popular with sailors. There's plenty or precident for outsourcing this type of service, so I would not think it was much of a barrier if you can find someone in the civil service to take the idea seriously.

I was initially a bit twitchy about involving leisure marinas as I felt that their 'private' as opposed to 'public' status may jar with the Civil Service ethos.

However, the list of Ports which would need to be involved is quite significant. I wonder how long it would take to get agreement from this lot!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ports_in_England

 

[maby]

I was initially a bit twitchy about involving leisure marinas as I felt that their 'private' as opposed to 'public' status may jar with the Civil Service ethos.

However, the list of Ports which would need to be involved is quite significant. I wonder how long it would take to get agreement from this lot!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ports_in_England

I don't see why you need to get every port involved - a handful around the coast would be enough. The same for marinas - provided it is well known where it is possible to land animals on private boats, one can reasonably expect pet owners to plan their passages appropriately.

 

[SimonD]

Thanks for this, but realistically, there are less than 20 along the south coast that would need to do the work. I take the point about HM's perhaps not wanting more work, but it's fee income and can't be much extra. Probably worth proposing both options - private and public sector.

Simon

 

[chinita]

What about a franchise to Pizza Hut?

You arrive in the harbour, order a Margaritta and ten minutes later a little fella arrives on a moped with nosh and chip reader.

Just a thought.

 

[l'escargot]

I think the only way a scheme as this could work is if the marina is allowed to register as the body conducting the checks and is allowed to charge enough for the service to make it attractive to them. DEFRA will not wear it if it requires an unchecked animal to come ashore, and organisations like vets or the RSPCA are not going to make special trips to boats to conduct checks - specially since it will be difficult to specify the date and time well in advance and it will be one or two animals at a time. I can imagine the big marina chains like MDL or Premier taking it up as a value added service provided it is not too difficult and they are allowed to make a profit on it.

I am totally supportive of the idea, I sail with 3 dogs and the current regulations prevent me from going X channel.

The one thing not being considered though is the action necessary if an animal does not pass the required checks. It is all very well if the visiting dog is scanned and everything is in order. However, what if the dog is found not to have a chip, the paperwork is not in order or whatever? We are then getting into legal sanctions or even seizing the animal for enforced quarantine. I can't see that being a situation that marina management or harbour masters wanting to get involved in - the practicalities are difficult, what do they do if the owner just walks off and says "So what?".

 

[SimonD]

I am totally supportive of the idea, I sail with 3 dogs and the current regulations prevent me from going X channel.

The one thing not being considered though is the action necessary if an animal does not pass the required checks. It is all very well if the visiting dog is scanned and everything is in order. However, what if the dog is found not to have a chip, the paperwork is not in order or whatever? We are then getting into legal sanctions or even seizing the animal for enforced quarantine. I can't see that being a situation that marina management or harbour masters wanting to get involved in - the practicalities are difficult, what do they do if the owner just walks off and says "So what?".

That is an advantage of the first option: the dog would be checked before landing. If it fails the checks for any reason, no offence has yet been committed. One option, allowed for in the EU regs, is to turn round and go back to France. I certainly wouldn't envisage the marina management taking enforcement action; they would simply submit a report to Defra if needed.

 

[maby]

I am totally supportive of the idea, I sail with 3 dogs and the current regulations prevent me from going X channel.

The one thing not being considered though is the action necessary if an animal does not pass the required checks. It is all very well if the visiting dog is scanned and everything is in order. However, what if the dog is found not to have a chip, the paperwork is not in order or whatever? We are then getting into legal sanctions or even seizing the animal for enforced quarantine. I can't see that being a situation that marina management or harbour masters wanting to get involved in - the practicalities are difficult, what do they do if the owner just walks off and says "So what?".

The marina informs the owner and DEFRA that they are not comfortable with the paperwork and advises the owner to keep the animal on board until the paperwork has been checked by an authorised person. The owner might ignore this advice, but we will be no worse off than would currently be the case if the owner simply smuggled the animal ashore - actually we are a lot better off since there will be a record of the event and DEFRA will be able to follow up.

 

[l'escargot]

The marina informs the owner and DEFRA that they are not comfortable with the paperwork and advises the owner to keep the animal on board until the paperwork has been checked by an authorised person. The owner might ignore this advice, but we will be no worse off than would currently be the case if the owner simply smuggled the animal ashore - actually we are a lot better off since there will be a record of the event and DEFRA will be able to follow up.

All very well but from the DEFRA website: The quickest way to get a response is to call our Helpline which is open Monday to Friday 8:00 am to 6:00 pm. Alternatively you can email us at defra.helpline@defra.gsi.gov.uk or write to us at the postal address given above. We aim to reply to emails or letters within fifteen working days. I don't think DEFRA would do much in the way of "follow(ing) up".

 

[maby]

All very well but from the DEFRA website: The quickest way to get a response is to call our Helpline which is open Monday to Friday 8:00 am to 6:00 pm. Alternatively you can email us at defra.helpline@defra.gsi.gov.uk or write to us at the postal address given above. We aim to reply to emails or letters within fifteen working days. I don't think DEFRA would do much in the way of "follow(ing) up".

But the point stands - they will be no worse off than they would be if the animal were smuggled in and, in practice they will have a description of it, the name and passport number of the owner and details of the boat it entered on - lots of information to follow up.

 

[SimonD]

All very well but from the DEFRA website: The quickest way to get a response is to call our Helpline which is open Monday to Friday 8:00 am to 6:00 pm. Alternatively you can email us at defra.helpline@defra.gsi.gov.uk or write to us at the postal address given above. We aim to reply to emails or letters within fifteen working days. I don't think DEFRA would do much in the way of "follow(ing) up".

It wouldn't be Defra itself but it's executive agency the Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratory Agency. This is manned 24/7 (to deal with foot and mouth etc.)

Simon

 

[chinita]

It is the responsibility of the vet in the country of departure to check paperwork and chip.

Happened to us in Portugal last year. No chip detected. Four different scanners used. X ray taken which established chip was there. Solution was vet implanted a new chip and amended passport.