Does it exist?

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Neil

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I've recently made the move from motor to sail, and while I just have an open day sailer at the moment, my ambitions (fantasies, probably!) go further...... eventually.......some day...a time in the future - you know how it is. I have followed the forum and investigated all the boats mentioned. Now, even as a motorboater, I appreciated that every boat is a compromise - even more so in the sailing world.

I have read about the big keel 'folk boat' genre, built in the 70's (80's) with heavy, solid layup and very good sea-keeping abilities, but with poor accommodation and slow-ish (?). Alternatively, more modern boats, perhaps not as well made, maybe not so good in heavy seas, but with better accommodation and potentially faster.

And then you might add catamarans to the equation.

Does my dream boat exist? A boat that combines the solidity of an older boat, fast, seaworthy, go anywhereable and sailable singlehandedly, but with accommodation to satisfy a woman's needs (double bed, decent wardrobe, proper toilet and shower, kitchen? And lets forget about price for a moment! (but just a moment!). How big can you go single handed?

Fantasy Land: Early retired, sail to boat to an exotic location single-handed, joined by wife and children for long lazy summer on the boat.
 
Does it exist?..

Someone has to start so,first a question,why singlehanded ?
Large yachts are not all about musclepower nor outright speed either,in fact personally I would feel confident in a yacht up to 38ft, lets say for example, a Moody 38.
Centre cockpit ;beamy enough for a steady sail,and all the domestics you require ;space to live/entertain.
Wheel steering and autohelming enable you to move around the deck and prepare for berthing, and reassures SWMBO if she takes the wheel whilst you have the technical bits to do, using two-speed winching and perhaps in-mast reefing.
The Moody 376, and 38 ,sail very well,and better with the normal keel fitted not the Scheel version. Their engines are adequate and give about 7KTS,sailing even better, to 8KTS.
Though of 1980/90's vintage they are well built with a good active Moody Owners Association who organise rallies and can answer technical queries regarding all models of the marque.
If a sportier version at 34 ft is an option the Moody336 again has all the appointments, and a good reputation for performance when racing.
A budget of around £100k would give a fair choice of used boats.

ianat182
 
Thank you very much and I'll delve into those examples you've quoted.

The reason for single handed operation is that it would allow myself to sail the boat to nice locations, to be joined later by the family. Herself and the children probably wouldn't be so keen or able (work/school) to spend long periods at sea.
 
I think it largely depends on the length of the boat.

Any boat is always going to be a compromise, and in smaller boats (say <35') the compromises are going to be such that it is very hard to combine say space in the accommodation with sea kindliness.

To get a good compromise I would suggest that you need to look in the 36-40' range (give or take a foot); and if sleeping accommodation is a priority then consider a centre cockpit layout with a stern double - any other arrangement sub 40' is probably going to make the double berth restricted.

The Moody's already mentioned are good examples of the style, though probably biased more towards accommodation than sailing. Other good examples of the style might be the Oyster 39 - a very ugly boat but otherwise seems an excellent layout. There are lots of other designs in that sort of range/age that would probably be equally suitable.

You might struggle a bit with more modern boats where there seems to be a split between the "mass market" boats - either the charter-oriented Ben/Jen/Bavs or the more sporty X/J style and the "quality" cruising boats (mega bucks!).

Below 35' feet there are still a few options, but you will probably need to be prepared to compromise a bit more on some aspects. Again the CC designs give the most accommodation
 
LadyInBed said:
Oh how times change! :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly !
I have a 33ft boat which has more than enough room for my wife and I, with the occasional extra crew. Full standing headroom, 2 double cabins, heads with shower, decent room in the saloon and plenty of space in the cockpit. Added to that, she is a solid, seagoing boat which also has a good turn of speed when needed.
Though she is a 1988 model, I presume she was positively palatial in her day. If you read older sailing magazines (I found a copy of a 1990 PBO) and look at the 'average' size of the boats in there, it is amazing to think what counts as a 'small' boat these days.
 
I would say Rustler 36. Starlight 35. Bowman 40.

75k should do for a good Rustler 36... starlight 35 say 85k, Bowman more like 120 or so..... but she is gonna need crew.

Lots of good boats that would suit.... Sadler 34, Sigma 362....
 
LadyInBed said:
Oh how times change! :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Tut tut tut - A little basic grammar lesson.

Smaller is a comparative. So to say that A is smaller than B does not mean that A is in itself small. After all it is indubitably true that QM2 is smaller than a super tanker - but I would hesitate to call QM2 small :)

It is equally fair to say that Lady in Red is larger than Bedouin. Ergo you sail a large boat :) And that is before we start comparing cabin floor space in relation to the number of crew!
 
photodog said:
I would say Rustler 36. Starlight 35. Bowman 40.

75k should do for a good Rustler 36... starlight 35 say 85k, Bowman more like 120 or so..... but she is gonna need crew.

Lots of good boats that would suit.... Sadler 34, Sigma 362....
Click to expand...

Agreed....some good choices here as long as you have the experience.
Some find single handed easier than others.
There's nothing like that first time though.
Fairly similar to that day when the driving examiner says you've passed and you drive off on your own and with some luck get there in one piece. :-)
 
Hi Neil, I think there is a solution to your ideal boat and it's called a Najad, Hallberg Rassy or Malo - all Swedish, expensive, beautifully built, heavy but fast. I largely single-hand a Najad 440, which is so much easier to handle in a busy marina than a) anything smaller and b) any Bav/Ben, has great accommodation and is very sea-kindly - especially in the really rough stuff around Ireland & Scotland. I could go on and on about the virtues of these Orust-built Swedish boats, but I will probably bore everyone silly!
In terms of which of the three are best, I think they are all good and final choice is really down to style and looks - my own preference being the Najad.
If you can afford one, new or second-hand, I am sure you won't regret it.
 
I like heavy and fast! I will pore over the details for all the boats mentioned. Choosing a boat is not easy, with so many variables. Probably the most perplexing for a newcomer is the relationship between seaworthiness by design vs. seaworthiness by size - since, all things being equal, length will always be a big factor, I think. Of course that brought me to my question of length vs. single-handedness.

Actually, someone somewhere ought to build a multi-factorial model - each boat being given a weighting for each parameter and then combining them in such a way that by changing one or more you see the net effect on "boatability". Though I suspect that, like the many climate models, it will be difficult to match prediction to reality. As long as the model is not developed by the same guys that formulated the financial models that pushed the sub-prime mortgage market!
 
Has been done already - best known probably the one by Ted Brewer (American Naval Architect). However they all have a fundamental problem that much of the data is subjective - although the Brewer model does use hard design data.

The whole concept of "capability" is subjective dependent on who you are. This is shown by the huge variety of boats that people buy to do essentially the same job. Once you express a preference for a particular "style" such as heavy, longer keel etc you have immediately narrowed your choice and then decisions are made by either a detailed analysis of the differences using your own subjective criteria (even with weightings if you want to confuse yourself further) or just going with what you fancy! Which is actually the same thing that people used before they got spreadsheets!

There is a lot to be said for just getting the key parameters right, buying the boat and working on eliminating its shortcomings as far as possible.
 
Neil said:
I like heavy and fast!
Click to expand...

You probably mean strong and fast - heavy is not necessarily good as strong winds needed to get moving, and a large proportion of the time the winds are light. Therefore go aluminium and look at the OVNI range - will go anywhere and with the lifting keel they will go more places than most. www.alubat.com
 
I like Island Packets - we have an IP370 at 38ft which I thought about the ideal size for long term cruising - and always thought the smaller IP350 was a pretty good boat too. Agree with Bedouin that 35-40ft is a good compromise between cost and comfort yet still manageable short handed. IP's are expensive new like all good boats but been around long enough and built well enough to last that you can get plenty of good examples secondhand. Nearly bought a beautiful, immaculate 15 year old IP32 a few years ago that was a very reasonable price and had been maintained by some perfectionist mechanical fetishist. Feels like a 35 footer down below. I know two of these that have done transatlantics so very capable. We looked at a lot before we chose and I watched my wife and kids reactions each time - buy it together, like a house. You know when THEY'VE found the boat they're comfortable with which makes buying and subsequent ownership so much easier, and so it was for us.

Any quality boat such as HR, Majad, Moody, Malo, Westerly (with care), Southerly etc will do you fine. Bowman and Starlight are good too - our very own Caroldevon has a nice Bowman 40 and she's off jaunting around the world as we type. Valiants, Nicholsons, Vancouvers, there's plenty to choose from. Many people have even done extensive cruising on Beneteaus and Bavarias, amazingly, although you wouldn't believe it were possible if you follow this forum closely.

You do need to set a budget first though, crawl all over as many as possible, preferably sail the ones on your short list (you could cadge rides with some scuttlebutters :D) and in the end forget all the logic and buy the one you fall in love with, just like the rest of us. Heart first, rationalise afterwards is I suspect very common amongst boat owners. Take a few years to do this.

Very important to dream though: only in 1990 did we buy our first dinghy and learn to sail, in 1992 we had a flotilla holiday which sparked the same dream you have, in 2002 we bought our first "real" cruiser (a Leisure23SL - ideal boat to step up to) and in 2006 we managed to buy the IP and took off on a 6 month cruise of a lifetime. If you want to do something hard enough you'll eventually find a way to achieve it.
 
Does it exist..

The 38 ft boats I mentioned and other boats of this type, up to say 43 ft, have one thing in common in respect of singlehanded working,that is the helming positions are all about the same distance from the bow be it centre cockpit , or aft steering. However whilst this is useful when berthing ,the mainsheet positions and foresail controls are often not ideal,i.e. the winches are too far forward from the wheel or tiller.
My only real criticism of a centre cockpit yacht is the height /increased freeboard above the standard marina/ pontoon level;not a thing to forget when SWMBO or your family are crewing- twisted ankles a real possibility.
The Najad is one of my favourites as is the Bowman...but I can dream!

ianat182
 
Kioni said:
You do need to set a budget first though, crawl all over as many as possible, preferably sail the ones on your short list (you could cadge rides with some scuttlebutters :D) and in the end forget all the logic and buy the one you fall in love with, just like the rest of us. Heart first, rationalise afterwards is I suspect very common amongst boat owners. Take a few years to do this.

Very important to dream though: only in 1990 did we buy our first dinghy and learn to sail, in 1992 we had a flotilla holiday which sparked the same dream you have, in 2002 we bought our first "real" cruiser (a Leisure23SL - ideal boat to step up to) and in 2006 we managed to buy the IP and took off on a 6 month cruise of a lifetime. If you want to do something hard enough you'll eventually find a way to achieve it.
Click to expand...

These are exactly my thoughts! it took me more than a year to choose an open day boat, and if I like it enough to go the whole hog, I want to know all of the options (or as much as I can) to choose a boat that will suit. I find the forum a gold mine of information, and even though some will obviously promote their own dearly-held beliefs ahead of a balanced view, there's a lot more wheat than chaff in these threads.
 
Cost no option it would be one of these. I was on her for a while when new in Grenada.
Cetacea-main.jpg

She a Roger Martin 45
But on the other hand and much less dosh, my Bav 390 had the biggest shower I've seen on a yacht under 55' and easily single handed.
here's the layout
Cetacea-pic3.jpg

link to interior pdf
http://www.rodgermartindesign.com/images/File/Cetacea-pdf2.pdf
 
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I doubt if any two sailors would agree on a perfect boat as everyone has different needs and wants.

For me it is the Tradewind 35 - never been on board one but she just does it for me!

Having sailed a Vic 34 for a bit over the summer I was most impressed with that as well for a safe, rugged, go anywhere in relative comfort type of boat. But for now I am happy with my Cutlass 27 unless those special numbers come up!
 
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