Does CE CAT A actually mean ANYTHING??

[photodog]

Give the wide range of stability that A rated boats can have, the fact that a breaking wave equal in height to the beam of the boat will invert any yacht, the dubious value of spade rudders for offshore long distance use, and the actual ride quality(? for want of a better term...) of a light boat in heavy weather...

What the hell is the point of a CE cat A mark to the potential buyer?

It doesnt give the novice any sort of usefull indication as to the suitability of the boat to him, and the experienced sailor will look to other things to judge if the boat is appropriate.

I mean, in all honesty can we say that my Bavaria 31 is as safe and capable offshore as a Vancouver 34?

Does it do more harm than good?

 

[Madhatter]

Give the wide range of stability that A rated boats can have, the fact that a breaking wave equal in height to the beam of the boat will invert any yacht, the dubious value of spade rudders for offshore long distance use, and the actual ride quality(? for want of a better term...) of a light boat in heavy weather...

What the hell is the point of a CE cat A mark to the potential buyer?

It doesnt give the novice any sort of usefull indication as to the suitability of the boat to him, and the experienced sailor will look to other things to judge if the boat is appropriate.

I mean, in all honesty can we say that my Bavaria 31 is as safe and capable offshore as a Vancouver 34?

Does it do more harm than good?

Dunno , as I can't see because I am buried in bureaucracy

 

[Bosun Higgs]

I mean, in all honesty can we say that my Bavaria 31 is as safe and capable offshore as a Vancouver 34?

Likely there is less difference than you might think - the biggest boat factor in off shore safety is size and both these boats are small.

The categories simply group boats according to a range of characteristics. All category A tells you is that the boat is fit to be used a bit further offshore than a category B boat. No more, no less.

I believe that the categories were devised through international meetings of those involved in boat production. If so, and judging from my own experience in similar situations, the categories will have been chosen as the lowest common denominator of whats commercially acceptable to the boatbuilders. So category A will have been devised to fit in with Benny and Jeanny then existing boats.

 

[gardenshed]

The biggest factor in off shore safety is the experience and capability of the crew. Seamanship begins with maintenance: sails, running rigging, standing rigging, clutches, winches & steering systems and being at sea with the right people.

Without knowledge, reliance on the EU CAT A/B/C classifications is meaningless. Does it do more harm than good? Yes as it gives a false sense of security/safety

Before these categories were introduced, you had to make your own judgement and take responsibiity for your own decisions.

 

[bluedragon]

Give the wide range of stability that A rated boats can have, the fact that a breaking wave equal in height to the beam of the boat will invert any yacht, the dubious value of spade rudders for offshore long distance use, and the actual ride quality(? for want of a better term...) of a light boat in heavy weather...

What the hell is the point of a CE cat A mark to the potential buyer?

It doesnt give the novice any sort of usefull indication as to the suitability of the boat to him, and the experienced sailor will look to other things to judge if the boat is appropriate.

I mean, in all honesty can we say that my Bavaria 31 is as safe and capable offshore as a Vancouver 34?

Does it do more harm than good?

Spin-off from the Bavaria thread obviously. Couple of comments: "safe" and "capable" and can I throw in "comfort" are all a bit different aren't they. A Cat A AWB is perfectly safe in most offshore conditions, but not necessarily comfortable. In the ultimate storm if handled correctly they might outlast a heavyweight with a novice crew and skipper. The way I look at is that if it's NOT Cat A then I might wonder why? Size / designed for lakes / whatever. I think you're right that it may give a false sense of security to newcomers that the "boat will look after you" when they need to be actively preparing, rigging and handling the boat appropriately in heavy weather (or never being there in the first place!)

 

[Flapjack]

I was told they were used by insurance company’s i.e you wouldn’t get insurance on a Cat B boat to cross an ocean and so forth. And insurance companies love a reason not to pay out in the event of a claim

 

[webcraft]

Likely there is less difference than you might think - the biggest boat factor in off shore safety is size and both these boats are small.

Am I the only person who thinks this is nonsense?

- W

 

[prv]

Likely there is less difference than you might think - the biggest boat factor in off shore safety is size

Am I the only person who thinks this is nonsense

I suspect Roger Taylor might agree with you.

Pete

 

[Tranona]

The big mistake is to think that the RCD is just about stability - it is not. It is about a whole host of design criteria that are considered desirable for the purpose. It is difficult to argue that new boats are not better designed and built than older boats - rudders would be a good example. Based on the old design principles who would have thought a spade rudder could be designed to be as strong as they are (I know there are still failures, but old style rudders failed as well through poor design and construction).

You can demomstrate that small poorly designed boats (by today's standards) can undertake successful ocean passages. And in just the same way hundreds of new style designs also safely sail the worlds oceans.

For all their faults the RCD standards have generally resulted in better boats. The enemy of good cruising design has always been racing formula which have over the years encouraged some poor designs because of the need to gain competitive advantage within measurement constraints. Long thin boats, short fat ones, distorted waterplanes, poor stability, unbalanced rigs - you name it have come out of a need to meet rating requirements.

What is re-assuring is that the categories are not used to restrict (by law) the use of boats to the areas of the descriptors of the category, nor do insurance companies explicitly use them to limit cruising ranges. Even the countries that have usage classifications in their registration rules differentiate by equipment rather than design category.

So, use RCD and all the other design information as useful in arriving at your decision of what boat to buy, but not as prescriptive.

 

[snowleopard]

If you were French, you wouldn't ask the question. We came across an French Singlehander who had been rescued by an ARC crew when his boat sank. He was expecting a heavy fine when he returned home because his boat wasn't cat A so shouldn't have been in mid-Atlantic.

OTOH if you buy a used American boat in Britain it might well be cat D because the owner who brought it into the UK couldn't afford to get any other level of RCD rating.

 

[prv]

What is re-assuring is that the categories are not used to restrict (by law) the use of boats to the areas of the descriptors of the category

In this country.

France does, as I think do Spain and Portugal. Don't know about Germany, but it wouldn't surprise me.

What are the odds that within my lifetime some idiot politician will decide we should do the same?

Pete

 

[Tranona]

In this country.

France does, as I think do Spain and Portugal. Don't know about Germany, but it wouldn't surprise me.

What are the odds that within my lifetime some idiot politician will decide we should do the same?

Pete

Not sure that is true. They do have areas of use, but pretty sure they are defined by levels of equipment rather than RCD categories. Otherwise they would never be able to classify boats built prior to 1998!

Compliance with RCD (to get a CE mark) is an EEA commercial requirement - that is governs how the product can be advertised and is enforced (if at all) by Trading Standards. It was introduced to provide a common standard across the EEA.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Am I the only person who thinks this is nonsense?

- W

Probably not but it's well established technically as a result of many test programs including the ones commissioned as the basis for the categories and tests run by the USCG.

Not that that makes any difference to the prejudices aired on these forums.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

you wouldn’t get insurance on a Cat B boat to cross an ocean and so forth. And insurance companies love a reason not to pay out in the event of a claim

Reasons like not giving cover in the first place?

 

[stav]

Cat A certainly does not mean anything to me and I would not use it to judge a boat's ability, it seems to me it does little except give credit to what would otherwise be second rate products and without 'Cat A' perhaps would be seen as such and to this end it must give a sense of false ability and is therefore bad. Additionally it must keep buracarates and people with superficial qualifiactions employed in the boat industry.

 

[BrianH]

Originally Posted by Tranona
What is re-assuring is that the categories are not used to restrict (by law) the use of boats to the areas of the descriptors of the category

In this country. France does, as I think do Spain and Portugal. Don't know about Germany, but it wouldn't surprise me.
What are the odds that within my lifetime some idiot politician will decide we should do the same?

Italy too has such restrictions, but being Italy, no one bothers.

When I had a Trapper 500 there, had it been Italian flagged, I would not have been technically allowed to cross the Adriatic, only being classed, by its size (8.3m), to 6nm from the coast. Of course, turning up in Croatia one could have followed the entire northern Adriatic coastline keeping 6nm inshore.

I've never understood the thinking of these inshore-offshore regulations. Hasn't it always been impressed on us - even proved time and again - that keeping well out to sea in a storm is the safe option for a well-found cruising boat? It's when close to land that the danger lies.

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

I don't think all the boat builders understand it either.

When we were working on the spec of our boat, one of the things we wanted was opening forward facing windows on the deck saloon. One Scandinavian manufacturer too me that he wouldn't do that as he would lose his "category A ocean classification". I pointed out to him that the Discovery 55 had exactly the windows I wanted, but he still refused.

We went elsewhere.

 

[Boo2]

OTOH if you buy a used American boat in Britain it might well be cat D because the owner who brought it into the UK couldn't afford to get any other level of RCD rating.

Can you tell me why does the category affect the costs of having it rated ?

Thanks,

Boo2

 

[VO5]

The biggest factor in off shore safety is the experience and capability of the crew. Seamanship begins with maintenance: sails, running rigging, standing rigging, clutches, winches & steering systems and being at sea with the right people.

Without knowledge, reliance on the EU CAT A/B/C classifications is meaningless. Does it do more harm than good? Yes as it gives a false sense of security/safety

Before these categories were introduced, you had to make your own judgement and take responsibiity for your own decisions.

You are absolutely correct, and I wholly agree.

What we are observing is the Virus of Modernity.

This virus is insidiously introduced to pacify and dumb down an unsuspecting public whose natural propensity is to avoid logically deducing and reasoning, acting in accordance with that reasoning and actually taking responsibility for their very own decisions and actions.

Hence the effective insidious intrusion of The Nanny State, I respectfully submit.

 

[dt4134]

Can you tell me why does the category affect the costs of having it rated ?

Thanks,

Boo2

It's a much simpler process for Cat. D. I think you can self-certify as the importer.