Sailingsaves
Well-Known Member
Can you say what were the failings of the old raft that meant it warranted a lot of money to make seaworthy? Abrasions to material? Corrosion of connectors?
does anybody know a bit about liferafts?
- Thread starter Sailingsaves
- Start date
Can you say what were the failings of the old raft that meant it warranted a lot of money to make seaworthy? Abrasions to material? Corrosion of connectors?
prv
Well-Known Member
Certainly agree if it's a cannister stowed on a GRP deck. Undo the straps on one of those in a seaway and it'll probably slither over the side all on its own!
Pete
johnphilip
Well-Known Member
Easy to say when you don't know the conditions when it has to be dragged from the locker or the condition of the crew by that stage.
johnphilip
Well-Known Member
The Gas bottle was needing replacement (about £200 as I recall) and the raft could then have been serviced, + cost of flares etc. The early 90's raft is now obsolete with most parts no longer available. Nothing was needed for this service but it was considered that I would probably be having a very expensive service and almost certainly having to dump it after 3 years. I think it is time to renew, also I was told the model was more suitable for lake sailing than coastal seas.
KellysEye
Well-Known Member
>BUT why do some liferafts cost £400 to £500 (e.g. Seago) and others cost over £1000.
Inshore and ocean sailing thus more expensive as you move up the scale. We had an Avon life raft designed for ocean sailing, you can see that and the coastal version here: http://www.avoninflatables.co.uk/liferafts/?costline-liferaft
Inshore and ocean sailing thus more expensive as you move up the scale. We had an Avon life raft designed for ocean sailing, you can see that and the coastal version here: http://www.avoninflatables.co.uk/liferafts/?costline-liferaft
pvb
Well-Known Member
The survival instinct is very strong.
john_q
Well-Known Member
+1 and they claim to be self righting
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
Beg to differ
I would prefer my Spinlock LJ to my old Mae West any day
Although the later probably saved a lot more lives
As for the early Kaypock ( so long ago I cannot even spell it) --well you can have them
I suppose the forumite who wants coke bottles for fenders would say they are fantastic
Early Crewsaver buoyancy aides were not a patch on modern dinghy ones
prv
Well-Known Member
prv
Well-Known Member
I didn't comment on this first time round as I misread lifejackets as liferafts - and possibly older (big, heavy, expensive) rafts were better built than some modern ones seeking to minimise size, weight, and cost.
But applied to lifejackets - like Daydream Believer I don't find it a convincing assertion at all. Can you be more specific? What were these better designs and superior materials? How did you test the £300 modern models?
Pete
Sailingsaves
Well-Known Member
Not the most pleasant of replies to read of an evening.
You may beg to differ, but I have carried out the research, measured the thickness of bladders, the pressure they withstand, before bursting, tensile strength of material and how the material withstands over 100 000 folds and unfolds etc.
You are also making an assumption when you talk of Mae West and Kapock. Not very nice as I did not mention such old lifejackets at all. I own a £300plus lifejacket of a very well known brand with asymmetric bladders (good design feature) that is very uncomfortable to wear and when inflated MANUALLY (i.e. not to the higher pressure a co2 bottle would use) it has choked every individual I have tested it upon and made breathing very difficult.
The saying goes that: "to assume makes an Ass out of U and Me", but I am not the Ass here as only you compared Spinlock to Kapok
If you are on the Dengie then I would willingly meet you with a 1970 lj (of an extremely good brand), the £300 lj and your spinlock and let you test all 3.
My research was into 1970 onwards lifejackets that had spray hoods, lights, single and twin cylinders, and other features giving benefits that newer lifejackets do not offer.
Many readers here will have read the threads about modern lifejackets having a time expiry date as well. That is probably down to the inferior materials used nowadays and glue degradation etc - the same thread showed videos of couples letting off their modern lifejackets only to see them explode at seams.
Oh yes, one of the the 1970 lifejackets that is still going strong has release valves integrated - I do not know if Spinlock do.
There are many old Avon (hypalon) dinghies around that will knock the socks off modern PVC dinghies (and I am only talking of material here, not thwarts, rigid floors, ability to plane so let's not get into that one).
I also hold a doctorate in a scientific subject that encompassed material science.
Talking of my lighthearted thread about coke bottles that I myself declared as crazy is not very nice either. If you read the thread you will note that I have plenty of fenders - literally a shed full. So stating: "...forumite who wants coke bottles for fenders..." is also incorrect. The science behind plastic bottles that can withstand 90psi and more is quite interesting, especially the point at which they fail, similar to the place where dyneema soft shackles fail.
I think someone made a vessel of bottles and sailed it into the Pacific Gyre to make a point about plastic.
This is the first time I have seen a post from you aimed towards me that is rather unpleasant.
I have spent two days (and nights) in discussion with a company in China and another in India to create a prototype liferaft that will encompass all things good and look like no other liferaft so far designed. It will have hitherto unseen features giving benefits that ALL current inflatable liferafts (including the excellent Viking models) do not have - to name but one: making it a piece of cake to enter liferaft.
If successful and that is a big 'if' I will not charge such silly prices as £1999 either. A nominal profit is all that is needed. Creating something better is of greater satisfaction than being able to own an Oyster, light aircraft or helicopter, in my opinion - but I am quite an unusual person as I freely admit, but I am well grounded, thank you.
I can also refill my own co2 bottles safely so £200 for a new bottle seems expensive.
charles_reed
Well-Known Member
Thoroughly confused - lifejackets or liferafts?
If liferafts, having experienced 6hrs in one, I suspect death by drowning to be preferable - however I do own one, made by Bayerische Marine Fabrik, which has been regularly serviced every 3rd year since 1999. It's utterly redundant in the Med, but I spent the €82 on having it inspected last April and then the €286 to replace the consumables inside. I'll not waste any more money on it, which would be far better spent on better quality wine.
Lifejackets - well I'd never accept anyone's findings on anything, unless they detailed their testing procedures and criteria. On past postings and assertions I'd take all that Sailingsaves posts with a large spoon of salt.
But that is only an opinion.
I have 4 Crewsaver 150N, CO2 ripcord operated, tested every year by oral inflation and weighing the CO2 bottles. I've had to replace 4 bottles in 12 years. I don't wear them, even to and from the anchored boat, preferring a harness aboard. I fail to see the point of any single-hander staying afloat sufficiently long enough for his PLB to elicit a response.
If liferafts, having experienced 6hrs in one, I suspect death by drowning to be preferable - however I do own one, made by Bayerische Marine Fabrik, which has been regularly serviced every 3rd year since 1999. It's utterly redundant in the Med, but I spent the €82 on having it inspected last April and then the €286 to replace the consumables inside. I'll not waste any more money on it, which would be far better spent on better quality wine.
Lifejackets - well I'd never accept anyone's findings on anything, unless they detailed their testing procedures and criteria. On past postings and assertions I'd take all that Sailingsaves posts with a large spoon of salt.
But that is only an opinion.
I have 4 Crewsaver 150N, CO2 ripcord operated, tested every year by oral inflation and weighing the CO2 bottles. I've had to replace 4 bottles in 12 years. I don't wear them, even to and from the anchored boat, preferring a harness aboard. I fail to see the point of any single-hander staying afloat sufficiently long enough for his PLB to elicit a response.
Sailingsaves
Well-Known Member
Can't help you with your confusion I am afraid.
I believe that my posts have implied similar in that liferafts are not up to scratch
As you have taken the time to write that insult, could you take the time to substantiate it or at least tell me how you formed that opinion?
20 people were chosen from the UK to be given free stands at the gadget show. I was one of them. Do you think I am lying. Do you think the people running the Gadget Show Live at the NEC are fools?
http://www.ybw.com/forums/search.php?searchid=2731514
http://www.ybw.com/forums/search.php?searchid=2731514&pp=&page=2
AND IN PARTICULAR:
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...-used-lifejackets-older-the-better&highlight=
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KenMcCulloch
Well-Known Member
If you find the fairly mild criticisms offered by contributors to this thread 'insults' you must have led a very sheltered life. Disagreement and criticism of your (often unusual, even somewhat eccentric) ideas and assertions are not intended as insults by my reading of the posts concerned. It may turn into a self fulfilling prophecy of course.
duncan99210
Well-Known Member
One of the reasons for price differential found in liferafts is whether they comply with ISO, SOLAS or ORC standards and have been tested against those standards. The compliance testing is expensive and so reflected in the costs. Also, lower volume makers will have to recover these costs against a smaller number if units, leading to a higher per unit cost. And as far as I can determine the standards mostly relate to the contents of the raft and not to its construction beyond an insulated floor.
I also find it interesting that for someone who holds qualifications in material sciences and exhibits at the Gadget Show needs to ask the forum about liferaft design and specifications.
I also find it interesting that for someone who holds qualifications in material sciences and exhibits at the Gadget Show needs to ask the forum about liferaft design and specifications.
Sailingsaves
Well-Known Member
You are not posting about a liferaft suggest you read this in the lounge:
I refer you to post #55 (if memory serves) of the lounge.
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...to-harden-up&p=5077460&highlight=#post5077460
"whatever does not kill you makes you stronger" is not always true I can tell you. Many things have tried to kill me and there comes a time when the straw does break the camel's back.
Not sheltered; seen too much of it and very displeased with a lot of the human race. I am now sheltering myself away from a lot of life and doing very well though thank you.
Telling everyone to take my posts with a large spoonful of salt is an insult and anyone wishing to tell me to harden up is welcome to come and meet me - once will be enough.
Note Charles has not replied to my questioning of his (as only I apparently perceive it) rudeness.
To all the other lovely people that use this forum (the majority), I wish you a very Happy Christmas and sorry you have to read the above but I am a born fighter and trained fighter and will fight anything that I see wrong (to the detriment of my health).
Sailingsaves
Well-Known Member
Thanks for info.
As to your interest; my product at the Gadget Show was electronic.
I have never owned a liferaft whereas many of you have. Whilst studying materials, most was at atomic level and even subatomic level, nuclear magnetic resonance of concrete studies does not help a lot with rubber, hypalon and pvc and whilst I could write out the formula for poly compounds and give you the info into electron orbital excited states etc (actually I have forgotten a lot of that) I still don't know how many rafts are made of rubber, hypalon, pvc, PU coated fabrics etc.
This does not need to be taken with a spoonful of salt and is about me and taken from my website to give my clients a bit of background info:
Represented the UK at the prestigious London International Youth Science Forum (LIYSF) aged 18. BSc(Hons) ChemicalPhysics (a rather unique degree). UBC Vancouver research assistant for one year; - thermodynamics project. Ministry Of Defence (MOD) Clothing Research Institute:-Colchester. Distinguished soldier, sailor, inventor, scientist, technologist.
I have documents to prove all of the above. Google Prof Koga,UBC and although he has aged a lot, there is a photo of a genial Japanese chap at UBC whom I worked under. Here is an example. I didn't make it up and I do have a photo of his younger self with me at his side, but then would Charles believe it is me at his side?
https://www.chem.ubc.ca/yoshikata-koga
duncan99210
Well-Known Member
Sailingsaves, you've missed the point I was trying to make about your rather petulant posts on here: you come on asking for thoughts and information and when you don't like what we say you attempt to talk down to us from you gleaming academic spire. No one doubts you have the qualifications you claim, nor that you had a stand at the Gadget Show. What I did was to question the relevance of these things to your posts and to ponder aloud as to why someone with your somewhat arrogant attitude was seeking advice from us ignorant peasants.
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
Resolution
Well-Known Member
"I want to be an inventor when I grow up." Maybe the message is in the last four words.
In the meantime let's welcome Sailingsaves to the forum as a new source of ideas and subject matter, to stir up all us crusty old f4rts.
In the meantime let's welcome Sailingsaves to the forum as a new source of ideas and subject matter, to stir up all us crusty old f4rts.
Sailingsaves
Well-Known Member
Nonsense. This thread was fine until Daydream believer stating upon false assumptions (kapock and May West indeed) declared that my findings about lifejackets (which was not the point of the thread) were false (if anyone was talking down to anyone it was he, talking down to me. He then decided to falsely state that I wanted coke bottles for fenders when I had simply discussed them in a "crazy" post which actually turned into an interesting one eliciting knowledge about other uses of bottles.
I object to being called a liar is what then happened; by Charles Reed.
My qualifications were indeed doubted by Charles and that is why I mentioned them - no need for you to talk of academic spires.
Then the university lecturer from Scotland decided to throw in the "sheltered life" remark.
People simply jumping on the bullying bandwagon as if this is the lounge will get a darn good return of fire and as you have now clearly stated that your comments were of sarcasm rather than the literal interest that I politely believed them to be, then you are contributing to the nastiness; I hate injustice and bullies and have fought them throughout my lifetime - and I have falsely been called a liar by Charles.
Aren't you the owner of a Bavaria 38, I hardly think you can call yourself a peasant.
If anyone else is going to have a dig, (firstly please don't) secondly if you insist please do some research into my posts before having the dig because 2 'crazy' posts among 700 odd does not make me a liar (according to Charles)
Lastly, there is very little info on liferafts here or on the web and I will be talking to service agents. Duncan (the sarcastic one) thinks the differing costs of liferafts is down to certification and contents, whilst other sensible posters have pointed out it is NOT down to contents. If Duncan watched the Viking video he would have noted more than an inflatable floor; double skinned cover, ease of entering and helicopter ex-fill, even the interior colour to disuade seasickness.
In a short while I have learned about materials, the different dispensing methods of the co2, the different fittings, MOD MK 18 Beaufort is a one time use only co2 bottle and a completely different bottle fitting to the MK 15 - a very good fitting and vastly superior to the old Beaufort 4 man raft I am examining with heavy rusty bottle (that I have refilled). Some rafts have expansion chambers so cooling effect of co2 does not harm fabric.
I would have thought people would have been interested in this. I would always service my own rafts as I would know it had been completed properly and that raft would work if needed.
The contents of a liferaft are the least of my concerns as I like many others have discussed on here before would have their own supplies stowed next to the liferaft.
I would rather pay for an empty raft that is guaranteed to inflate, be easy to entire, allow me to survive the elements for a great period of time
If people are going to lay into someone at least do the research first; read the entire current thread, their past threads, and make sure you know what you are talking about.
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