ValleyForge
Member
Major passage over the weekend, sail all the way, both there & back. Epic. Mind you, it was all the way from Bowness to Ambleside & then back again. And we've no engine ....
Does anybody actually sail?
- Thread starter Halcyon Yachts
- Start date
SHUG
Active member
In the Med. there are two kinds of motorboats.
Those with masts and those without!
Those with masts and those without!
dunedin
Well-known member
Don't get me started
. Presumably the charter boat was killed by that abomination for sailing performance, the furly mainsail
Ludd
New member
This morning,I left Ria Formosa on the first of the ebb.About 6 yachts(out of 60 ish anchored there
) left astern of me . I hoisted the main before I raised the anchor,but motorsailed till outside the mole. The rest motored. I hoisted the cruising chute,and flew it from 9 A.M till 5p.m for a distance of 27nm. I only saw one other yacht sailng before 12 o'clock,and that was a big fella with a spinnaker.Yesterday,by the way, I had to BEAT east from Portimao to Ria Formosa--great sail ,though.
JimC
Well-known member
I can't understand why people get so incredulous and even angry about yachts motoring when they could be sailing. If they want to motor let them.
knuterikt
Active member
???There are probably times that you should unless you approached them all from their starboard side
Sailing Sailboat VS engine driven Sailboat?
Just asking..
Woodlouse
New member
10kts is a very pleasant sailing breeze. Calm, relaxing, carefree and a perfect complement to a G&T whilst watching the world gently waft by. I'm no fair weather sailor, but my favorite sailing is definitely light airs.
rwoofer
Active member
I have to say that I put a lot of the blame for motoring down to the fact that cruising boats just don't have the right sail area. It was really brought home to me sailing a Southerly 32 a couple of weekends ago. It really was a lost cause below 10 knots.
In comparison my last boat, an RM880 was working from 5 knots and was easily fully powered up at 10 knots. Looking at the specs it is easy to see why:
RM880, weight = 3 tonnes, white sail area 46m
Southerly 32, weight = 7.1 tonnes, white sail area (with self-tacker as I was sailing) 53m
Over 2 times the weight, but only 15% more sail area. Why don't modern cruisers have better SA/D ratios????
In comparison my last boat, an RM880 was working from 5 knots and was easily fully powered up at 10 knots. Looking at the specs it is easy to see why:
RM880, weight = 3 tonnes, white sail area 46m
Southerly 32, weight = 7.1 tonnes, white sail area (with self-tacker as I was sailing) 53m
Over 2 times the weight, but only 15% more sail area. Why don't modern cruisers have better SA/D ratios????
OldBawley
Active member
Power
In the med only 15% of sail boats sail. Has to do with electrical power. Fridges and even freezers eat electricity. They have to have the engine running for min 8h anyway. so why bother to sail.
In the med only 15% of sail boats sail. Has to do with electrical power. Fridges and even freezers eat electricity. They have to have the engine running for min 8h anyway. so why bother to sail.
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doctorfresh
New member
Sailing / Motoring
Just had a weekend sailing off Anglesey.
Virtually no wind on Saturday, so if yachts are motoring = fair enough (at least they're out on the water)
20 knots on Sunday - but still 60-70% of yachts motoring, even with the wind behind them or abeam.
Why not? This is a green issue, surely?
Just had a weekend sailing off Anglesey.
Virtually no wind on Saturday, so if yachts are motoring = fair enough (at least they're out on the water)
20 knots on Sunday - but still 60-70% of yachts motoring, even with the wind behind them or abeam.
Why not? This is a green issue, surely?
cmedsailor
Well-known member
When you are asking why motoring or motor-sailing instead of sailing in what circumstances are you referring to? General sailing (or motoring), something like hanging around for pleassure? Delivery? Actually going somewhere with not much time constraints?
It's important to distinguish.
What I do (I live in the Med) is the following:
- If I just get out of the marina to spend some time sailing or go somewhere near, drop anchor and swim then it's definately sailing. Otherwise, what's the point. I don't find much amusement in listening to the volvo penta.
- If I actually go to a "destination" (for a weekend or longer) and it is coastal and it's windy (boat moving 5knots+) then it's sailing or motor-sailing. I have two anxious kids on board looking forward to swim!
- If I am going to an offshore "destination" (100miles+) then it's mainly motor-sailing (at least main sail is up if not possible to have both). I said mainly but in fact I did a 115 miles trip 2 years ago (without kids on board and the need to get there a bit sooner) with a nice 10-15 knots of wind at 60 degrees from bow and it was pure sailing (it was like a dream!!)
- For delivery it has to be motor sailing (one or two sails up) no matter of how much it blows. I did a 750 miles delivery this summer in 4 days and the engine was on all the time. Moving 1-2 knots faster all the time makes a huge difference in such task.
It's important to distinguish.
What I do (I live in the Med) is the following:
- If I just get out of the marina to spend some time sailing or go somewhere near, drop anchor and swim then it's definately sailing. Otherwise, what's the point. I don't find much amusement in listening to the volvo penta.
- If I actually go to a "destination" (for a weekend or longer) and it is coastal and it's windy (boat moving 5knots+) then it's sailing or motor-sailing. I have two anxious kids on board looking forward to swim!
- If I am going to an offshore "destination" (100miles+) then it's mainly motor-sailing (at least main sail is up if not possible to have both). I said mainly but in fact I did a 115 miles trip 2 years ago (without kids on board and the need to get there a bit sooner) with a nice 10-15 knots of wind at 60 degrees from bow and it was pure sailing (it was like a dream!!)
- For delivery it has to be motor sailing (one or two sails up) no matter of how much it blows. I did a 750 miles delivery this summer in 4 days and the engine was on all the time. Moving 1-2 knots faster all the time makes a huge difference in such task.
Bosun Higgs
N/A
Think about it. With 10kn of wind that 16/17kn over the deck to windward and first reef on a Bendytoy. Swmbo who doesnt like "leaning" will moan.Then you can only sail withing maybe 40 deg of the true wind so thats 80 deg out of the 360 unless you want to zig zag your way to the destination. And invariably it pays to motor dead upwind rather than tack.
Then if going downwind you may manage 4kn which is too slow if you have to make distance so you put the engine on at idle. Theres only the situation where the destination is between 40 and 150 off the wind where 10kn under sail would be better than motorsailing. 220 out of the 360.
What I'm getting at is that for the family crew wanting to get somewhere, there is a fairly limited envelope of conditions when the typical yacht can make decent progress without engine. I sail in anything when racing and obviously do not have the engine on. When delivering the boat with SWMBO aboard we motor / motor sail somewhere between 50% and 70% of the time.
Apart from anything else we need to re-charge the battery for the night time.
OK you can argue endlessly with the numbers I have used but for a family crew wishing to make distance, the engine is your friend.
P.S> And if that doesnt stir up endless arguments from the purists I dont know what will.
prv
Well-known member
johnphilip
Well-known member
Sailing boats or boats with handkerchief.
I so agree with this. Why must we follow the normal dictat of this forum, long keel, heavy displacement sails with 6 reefing points? I bet a majority of sailors generally day sail or 90% of their weekend cruises are about 20 miles each way. Why not have a more performance orientated boat, no need to have room below for a royal reception. Get a boat that sails and see how brilliant you feel as you are doing a good five knots in a gentle breeze. Without this ability the frustration of wallowing soon gives the excuse to hoist the iron topsail.
We sail a boat with plenty of sail and yes we do reef earlier than many, but a boat that performs well will have a better time beating off a lee shore in a blow.
Undersized engine, feathering prop, proper mainsail and off you go!
I so agree with this. Why must we follow the normal dictat of this forum, long keel, heavy displacement sails with 6 reefing points? I bet a majority of sailors generally day sail or 90% of their weekend cruises are about 20 miles each way. Why not have a more performance orientated boat, no need to have room below for a royal reception. Get a boat that sails and see how brilliant you feel as you are doing a good five knots in a gentle breeze. Without this ability the frustration of wallowing soon gives the excuse to hoist the iron topsail.
We sail a boat with plenty of sail and yes we do reef earlier than many, but a boat that performs well will have a better time beating off a lee shore in a blow.
Undersized engine, feathering prop, proper mainsail and off you go!
prv
Well-known member
Surely "sails with six reefing points" would be agreeing with your call for more sail area? I.e. a spread of canvas for light airs so massive that it has to be reduced many times over as the wind rises.
There was a thread on boatdesign.net (a forum I used to read on and off) where someone was asking whether modern "Spray" designs were slow. A persuasive point was made that many modern "Spray type" yachts are slow, because they combine her full-bodied cargo-carrying hull with a modern bermudan sailplan of limited area. Whereas if you look at small cargo vessels of old, who had to deliver the goods in any conditions without the option of turning the donk on in light winds, they can spread far more canvas. Sailplans invariably overhang the hull at both ends (bowsprits and overhanging booms) whereas many modern yachts start at the stemhead and end somewhere over the front part of the cockpit.
The person making this point owns a Spray-inspired boat just over 36 feet long, with something like 1000 square feet in the mainsail alone, plus staysail, jib and mizzen. So I guess he practices what he preaches.
(Not suggesting anything special about the Spray design, it's just the example, that happened to be used in this case, of an old-style fat hull.)
Pete
Giblets
Well-known member
I was watching the Solent webcam at various time over the weekend and was surprised at the number of yachts not only motoring but having no sails on at all!! What's al that about then? There can't be that many yachts about with both in-mast reefing & in-forestay furling.
Haven't-a-Clue
New member
Ah, that was me on Sunday, sailing (very) slowly up Southampton water, I guess half my SOG was due to tide. Very relaxing, mind you, which was, of course, why I was doing so. I am reluctant to ditch the cockpit tent 'cos SWMBO likes it to keep the sun off and as it's attached to the end of the boom, I can't hoist the mainsail.....saying that, most of the drive comes from the oversized genoa and on a beam reach, she goes well. With no slot effect she don't go to windward worth a damn and 'tis not much better running unless it's an F4 or above so oi always tries to sail onna beam reach. It would have been a perfect day if it hadn't been for the mobo's, ferries, jet skis' etc making an unholy din. Still, I managed another first yesterday, well two actually, first I managed to get off and back on my pontoon without assistance of any kind, but far more importantly, I managed to heat up lunch ON THE MOVE!! Like wow, hey.....I was single handed.... OK I know you seasoned types are probly laughing yerselves sick but for me, no auto helm, well, I felt quite proud.
OldBawley
Active member
have been there, go on. You are on the right track.
chubby
Well-known member
I was proud of myself: actually sailed!!
Maybe it is because I have filled up the tanks to the brim for autumn and dont want space for condensation but sailed from Portsmouth to Beaulieu and back at the weekend with engine only on for berthing , not bad for a motorsailor! Even 3 knots over the water if you work the tides gives a respectable 5-6 knots SOG in a good tide. Normally I think it seamanlike to use the best of either sail or motor to make reasonable passage times, I get a bit inpatient goping nowhere and can`t think it good seamanship to be purist about sailing when you have 42 horses under you, then missing tidal gates, locks or more importantly dinner bookings but this weekend the weather, tides and wind were perfect for a gentle but satisfying sail
Maybe it is because I have filled up the tanks to the brim for autumn and dont want space for condensation but sailed from Portsmouth to Beaulieu and back at the weekend with engine only on for berthing , not bad for a motorsailor! Even 3 knots over the water if you work the tides gives a respectable 5-6 knots SOG in a good tide. Normally I think it seamanlike to use the best of either sail or motor to make reasonable passage times, I get a bit inpatient goping nowhere and can`t think it good seamanship to be purist about sailing when you have 42 horses under you, then missing tidal gates, locks or more importantly dinner bookings but this weekend the weather, tides and wind were perfect for a gentle but satisfying sail
Bosun Higgs
N/A
Not sure you are comparing like with like there. No reflection on the RM but its hardly the same sort of upmarket cruising boat the Southerly is.
But your point is true nevertheless because some cruising boats like Arcona or Elan tend to have much higher sa/d ratios than some others. Bit like some cars have high power to weight ratios (my little Lotus for example has 190bhp in 900kg ) whilst others have low ( family Volvo has 140 bhp for 1500kg). Guess which goes best to windward. But so what - you pay your money and make your choice.