Does a motoring cone give right of way

[snowleopard]

I too had thought about contributing to this thread that there is no such thing as right of way in colregs

In fact the term 'right of way' is not used in the document but it is common parlance and the vast majority of people understand it to mean the same thing.

 

[hlb]

The boats racing were between 30 and 45 ft so size was not an issue
My main point was that this is only about the 2nd or 3rd time I have seen a cone used on the clyde but in this case the person driving had put it up but left his sense when he drove through a restricted chanel when he could have avoided it .
Technically right but stupid in practice

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What makes you think that because you were in a race, you had some sort of right of way. You have not. You still have to conform to Col Regs. From what I have read. he had right of way, you can not just zig zag about in front of him and expect him to keep changing course, even if I'm wrong.

He's every right to drive through a restricted chanel and how the hell does he know, theres a yacht race going on anyway.

You've said you were in a narrow chanel, with low and flooky winds. It suggests that you should not have been under sail at all. The race is unimportant.

 

[Lakesailor]

Bloody Hell.

Can't you all get over it?

It's a meaningless happenstance that has now withered in the mists of time.

Next!

 

[laurance]

It is not rule 9 that should be exercising our minds in this case but rule 6, safe speed. I think the OP is questioning why another sailing yacht unequivocally navigating as a motor vessel, would proceed through a racing fleet, down tide, where rule 9 rule did not apply at what he is implying was unreasonable speed.

Rule 6 extract:

'In determining a safe speed the following factors shall be among those taken into account':

(ii) The traffic density including concentrations of fishing vessels or any other vessels;

(iii) The manageability of the vessel with special reference to stopping distance and turning ability in the prevailing conditions;

 

[LittleSister]

In fact the term 'right of way' is not used in the document but it is common parlance and the vast majority of people understand it to mean the same thing.

Sadly, you are mistaken. It is indeed in common parlance, but understood by many to mean something quite different from the obligation to stand on, but continuing responsibility to avoid a collision, given by the ColRegs!

'Right of way' is sloppy, nay even misleading, wording that can contribute to misuderstanding, hence best avoided. Is 'stand on vessel' so difficult to get the tongue (head?) around?

 

[hlb]

why another sailing yacht unequivocally navigating as a motor vessel, would proceed through a racing fleet.

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It's a motor boat, it is not a pretend yacht, motor cone or not.

Lets not forget that Col regs we're invented yonks ago and were never intended to include, little motor boats and sailing dinghies. However it has been presumed that all little sailing dinghies have right of way over much everything.

I dont look at shutyerbut much, mailny because it has the same endless questions Col regs being the main one. And mainly it's about. If I pick the right rules, I have right of way.

I remember being in Lime bay fishing, doing about 2 knots on one engine. A yacht came up from three miles behind and shouted across. What was our course!! Not going into what happrened. But he clearly did not expect to have to change course by one inch, he was under power.


The general view I apply is, at sea, I make small ajustments to course to pass the stern of other vessels. But mainly just avoid them.

In a narrow channel I'll do my best to not upset races and try to keep out the way. But at the end of the day, I have a perfect right into Harbour, by which ever route I choose.

If I feel I cant move much, for whatever reason. I gived five blasts.

But noboddy under stand to get out the wq

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Not knowing the area I thought I'd have a look and see what all the fuss was about. Putting Burnt Isle into Google Earth did nothing so I tried Largs and Kames per Gardenshed. I hope there's another Kames around somewhere, otherwise the main ColRegs problem is when to change lanes on the roundabout a mile or so ESE of Kilmarnock.

Having looked for the Northern end of the Isle of Bute I found this:

If I was in a Motor-Sailer being safe and sensible I'd probably want to go through that gate marked, which is 275 feet long. For a 40' Motor-Sailer that's a constricting but, especially if there's a reasonable depth near the shore, it's probably not narrow. You can manoeuvre - but remember he's going downwind and downtide so if you're him, you aren't going to be pushing your luck and you certainly aren't going to think about cutting across the front of that island unless you've got lots of time and space to not only avoid being swept down on to it but also time to set yourself up on the right line to get through and avoid any boats already in the North channel hidden behind the island - you might be able to see a mast over the island but not necessarily a motor launch for example.

I've no idea how it's known that the Motor-Sailer was going full chat but, if he's going to have enough way on to maintain manoeuvrability, then he's going to be covering the ground at a fair lick.

Now if the several yachts he faces tacking in the channel towards him are stand-on then they'll be maintaining their course won't they? Only they're not of course because they're trying to beat to windward against the tide in light winds.

And despite all this he's displayed the correct signals and successfully avoided a bunch of idiots who have put themselves in a position where they are unable to obey one of the most basic and imprtant of all the Col Regs - "Stand-On vessel must maintain it's course until it is clear that to do so would put them in unacceptable risk of collision" or whatever the wording is.

I learnt to sail at Burnham Sailing Club in the strong tides and unpredictable channels of the East Coast. Frequently everyone wanted the same bit of water to try and stay out of the tide (or sometimes because it was the only bit of water left) and it was constantly drummed into us that sail has right of way unless overtaking but that you must hold your course and never cause another vessel to stand into danger. If you're on or near a collision course and you are stand-on you should only tack if you can do say without any risk of confusing the give-way vessel and, as soon as you have tacked or born away, you're not the stand-on vessel any more.

For some reason this seems not to be taught any more. To complain about someone displaying good seamanship while your own is clearly lacking puts you in the same bracket as those pillocks who get into the wrong lane when driving and then gesticulate wildly as if you have aggrieved them.

Of course I may have the location totally wrong in which case ignore everything I've written because it's total c**p. Armchair sailing can be nearly as good as the real thing sometimes

 

[Ubergeekian]

No - it says nothing about it being the give way vessel - colregs makes it quite clear that the stand on / give way rules continue to apply.

R-i-i-g-h-t. So one boat is obliged "not to impede" another but may still have right of way?

The meaning of "must not impede the safe passage" is precisely defined within the rules and in the context of the rules it means nothing more or less than that.

Well, I can't find that definition anywhere in the full text. As far as I can see, the word "impede" occurs twice, both in the section on narrow channels

9. Narrow channels
* A vessel proceeding along a narrow channel must keep to starboard.
* Small vessels or sailing vessels must not impede (larger) vessels which can navigate only within a narrow channel.
* Ships must not cross a channel if to do so would impede another vessel which can navigate only within that channel.

Here's the explanation for that rule from the horse's mouth: the IMO website

In Rule 9 a vessel proceeding along the course of a narrow channel or fairway is obliged to keep "as near to the outer limit of the channel or fairway which lies on her starboard side as is safe and practicable." The same Rule obliges a vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel not to impede the passage of a vessel "which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway."

I can find no evidence to support your claim that "must not impede" includes "may force to alter course".

 

[ninky]

chill guys....do we really need boat rage? the point is that ALL vessels should take avoiding action to prevent collisions. as this was never an issue here no worries. if it was any vessel that didn't take all reasonable action to avoid collision is wrong. personally i prefer not to play chicken in the water or on the road. but maybe that's cos i've got more oestrogen than testosterone coursing through my veins.....

 

[snowleopard]

I can find no evidence to support your claim that "must not impede" includes "may force to alter course".

That is certainly something I'd like to see explained by someone who can recite the rules verbatim. When a ferry crossing from Dover to Calais meets a ship in the Westbound lane of the TSS, the ship is the give way vessel but the ferry 'must not impede' it. So what happens and how does the ferry 'not impede' without waiving its stand on status? Yet another instance where the colregs is wooly but this one is particularly dangerous.

 

[alan17]

To return to the original question the answer is "NEVER" but also racing does not give right of way.

Last sunday we were racing therefor had to sail through Burntisles narrows along with several other boats against wind and tide light wind so several tacks in narrow channel
A 40ft AWB with a rarely seen cone just motored through at full speed although he
did not cause anybody to get out of way it was rather cavalier
Legally correct but totally lacking in consideration
rant over

 

[alant]

Not a troll just an original observation the combination of the cone with in my opinion inconsiderate behaviour suggests some one who may know the law but not have much judgement

they could see the boats in the channel but still insisted their right to do so rather than go round the Islands

For those who know the area we were going through the west chanel which is the dog leg
against wind and tide in light weather so speed over ground was minimal and with some wind shifts actually backwards

We certainly were restricted in tacking by the powered boat who gave no indication of being able to avoid any of the sailing boats

I accept the quickly through less hazard point

This channel has been raced through for many years and is an accepted passage
it is not dangerous if all concerned give and take

Also known as "the right of innocent passage"

PS There, as most of you will know, is no such rule in IRPCS as "Right of way"!
Suspect the cones were up to prevent those racing, confusing it with another competitor.

 

[Lakesailor]

chill guys....do we really need boat rage?

Forget it.
I tried to bring some perspective to it (post 43) but they just ignore you. Bit like a terrier after a rat.

 

[Sans Bateau]

Yeh, I agree, where is DAKA anyway he hasnt been trolling on here for ages!

 

[gardenshed]

Fancy sailing through there:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=55.929803,-5.176191&spn=0.018272,0.045705&t=h&z=15

If I came across anyone sailing through such a narrow gap, I would slice their sheets and they could f**k right off

Ahh, the ignorance of an armchair "expert" who doesn't know what he's talking about. If you were right, approx 90% of all the yachts based on the Clyde would have had their sheets cut by you.

Original question:
"Does a motoring cone give right of way"
Answer No.

Does the fact that the boats were racing have a bearing on the sail v power debate (similar size and types of boats in a narrow channe) No, the boat motoring should (and did) keep clear of the boats that were sailing.
Was the boat motoring going a bit fast in the OP's opinion: possibly and if he'd hit anyone......... hypothetical, he didn't.

for those of us based in Scotland, I suggest that we keep quiet about these beautiful tranquil areas We don't want nutters invading and threatening to cut our sheets, ranting about colregs, telling us where we can and can't race and disturbing the peace.

 

[bedouin]

R-i-i-g-h-t. So one boat is obliged "not to impede" another but may still have right of way?


Well, I can't find that definition anywhere in the full text. As far as I can see, the word "impede" occurs twice, both in the section on narrow channels



Here's the explanation for that rule from the horse's mouth: the IMO website



I can find no evidence to support your claim that "must not impede" includes "may force to alter course".

Can I suggest that if you can't find the rule then you are clearly not familiar with Colregs!

For anyone who does not know the basics then I would strongly suggest that they learn, either through one of the RYA shorebased courses or by just buying a good book on it. As others have said, picking and choosing rules you can come to any conclusion you want soit is important to understand all of Colregs before trying to assess a situation.

I will give a quick overview of the "not to impede" here. Note first that it clearly has a different meaning to "keep out of the way of" - otherwise they would not use a different phrase.

The meaning is defined in Rule 8 section F. section (ii) of that makes it absolutely clear that the "vessel of passage" will still be give way vessel if "risk of collision" exists.

Just to add a bit of commentary. Firstly note that there are no hard and fast rules for whether one boat is required "not to impede" the other - it is not a right that one vessel claims by hoisting a day shape - as it is not possible unambiguously to define whether the rules apply the "not to impede" rules cannot take precedence over the normal priorities.

Secondly it is just stating explicitly what is already implicit in the rules - that you have to take full consideration of all circumstances, including the capabilities and restrictions of the vessels involved, before deciding what action to take. IMHO that section of the rules are pretty useless because it is difficult to imagine a situation where that rules changes any aspect of the correct behaviour.

In my view "not to impede" acts at a longer range than "keep out of the way" so that best practice is that a vessel required "not to impede" should take early action to avoid approaching in such a way that "risk of collision" exists (thereby triggering all the other rules); but that is not required by the rules. So technically if you are "stand on" vessel approaching a "vessel of passage" and the vessel of passage can safely take avoiding action then you do not have to.

Note also that in the particular example given both vessels could only navigate in the narrow channel, so both were required "not to impede" the other. That is not a contradiction - there is nothing in the rules to stop the obligation being mutual.

 

[scottie]

Sorry for any offence given

ist point the original question was tounge in cheek
This was the only the 2nd time in 50yrs sailing that i can remember seeing a cone

2nd the AWB was overtaking vessel and did not have a jib up and would have seen the other boats before he committed to the channel

was sailing through dangerous no engines could be started bet it was testing

 

[David_Jersey]

I nominate this thread for a "SNOOKS Award".........given to those whose enjoyment of life aquatic is enhanced by a self judged feeling of injustice - from a failure to inconvenience others

 

[Bilgediver]

Quote: IRPCS Rule 9(b) "A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway."

You have stated that the channel is restricted, therefore a 40ft boat has limited manouverability unlike (what I presume are) racing dinghies tacking down it. Therefore the 40ft should not be impeded irrespective of size under 20m because he is the vessel which can "safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway". That part of the rule does NOT define minimum size, it defines a vessel that can "safely navigate......ONLY" etc.
In other words, a troll?

The question I ask is why were the shallow draft dingies being bolshy in the narrower of two channels when they had a choice of a much wider one for tacking ???????

Racitus????

 

[Danny Jo]

Suspect the cones were up to prevent those racing, confusing it with another competitor.

Much more likely he was from Wales, and didn't realize the Scots had adopted the "Solent amendment" to the Colregs (motoring cones are only to be displayed by those undergoing an RYA yachtmaster practical exam).