Do you use an anchor snubber?

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Neeves said:
'Josepheline'

11.5m x 6.67m x 7t (cruising weight including crew) Lightwave, 3 cabin catamaran. 2 x 20hp Volvo, 3 bladed folding Volvo props. Maxwell windlass, 1000 watt 75m x 6mm high tensile chain + complete spare rode 15m x 6mm chain + 40m 3 ply nylon. Same windage. but less weight, as a Bav 45

https://www.lightwaveyachts.com/?gc...IEJjqCgKrCoIz-9lvboN2ujR8_UmMrHRoCzrsQAvD_BwE

Jonathan
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Thanks - it's relevant in anchoring threads...
I'm boatless - but have had a couple of Sadler 25s, not at the same time, and a Moody336. When anchoring the latter I'd "always" have a rope bridle through a link in the chain, obviously subject to chafe, with the chain on a cleat.
 
Yes, always. 3-strand nylon with spliced eye slipped over stern quarter cleat, running via a snatchblock on the sidedeck, over the bow to just above the waterline. 8mm chain hook on the end. Total length ~ 9m, and it sure stretches when the wind and/or sea picks up.
Snatchblock is to prevent chafe on the forward edge of the coachroof; if it fails the snubber still works.

I have seen yachts with a snubber running from the foredeck cleat. Might make things quieter when the tide turns and the chain drags over the seabed, but in a blow? Useless.
 
NormanS said:
Interesting to read that you set your clutch so as to prevent overloading the windlass. How do you determine the correct setting for this? Ours is just a winged but, which is slackened off every time, to drop the anchor, and tightened up again once the desired length of chain is locked in the chain stopper, so that it is a backstop, and is also ready to heave in when required. I don't see how I could adjust it finely every time. Besides, I, or rather my wife, is perfectly capable of judging when to stop heaving, long before burning out the windlass.
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My electric winch is one way power so the anchor deploys under gravity. Sailing solo, I have learnt over the years to use the clutch to control the speed of deployment.
To raise the anchor and not overload the winch motor I give a 5 second or so burst of power which straightens the cantanery then let the weight of the deployed chain pull the boat forward, it seems to work quite well.
Also having a ketch I put the mizzen up first which helps keep the boat head to wind while the anchor is lifting.
 
Porthandbuoy said:
Yes, always. 3-strand nylon with spliced eye slipped over stern quarter cleat, running via a snatchblock on the sidedeck, over the bow to just above the waterline. 8mm chain hook on the end. Total length ~ 9m, and it sure stretches when the wind and/or sea picks up.
Snatchblock is to prevent chafe on the forward edge of the coachroof; if it fails the snubber still works.

I have seen yachts with a snubber running from the foredeck cleat. Might make things quieter when the tide turns and the chain drags over the seabed, but in a blow? Useless.
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My snubber runs from the foredeck cleat so I am curious about what you see as a problem with that arrangement?
 
LadyInBed said:
My electric winch is one way power so the anchor deploys under gravity. Sailing solo, I have learnt over the years to use the clutch to control the speed of deployment.
To raise the anchor and not overload the winch motor I give a 5 second or so burst of power which straightens the cantanery then let the weight of the deployed chain pull the boat forward, it seems to work quite well.
Also having a ketch I put the mizzen up first which helps keep the boat head to wind while the anchor is lifting.
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No no that can't be. The received wisdom on this forum is that there is no such thing as catenary. :D

What you say, is what I do also. I was brought up to raising sails starting from aft, and dropping sails starting from forrard, for reasons of commonsense.

One of the few things that I miss from my previous (big) boat, is her hydraulic windlass. It was designed only to motor in one direction (heaving in) so dropping anchor was always done by gravity (normally 140 lb plough). One of the great advantages of hydraulics is that you simply set the relief valve on the system to whatever pressure you require, and the windlass will maintain whatever load that pressure relates to, if required, for as long as you like, without any danger of overloading or tripping or burning out motors.

Without wishing to offend those who choose to use power to wind their anchor down, I cannot help being reminded of one of JDS's characters, "Percy, a pusher up of ropes". :D
 
Porthandbuoy said:
Yes, always. 3-strand nylon with spliced eye slipped over stern quarter cleat, running via a snatchblock on the sidedeck, over the bow to just above the waterline. 8mm chain hook on the end. Total length ~ 9m, and it sure stretches when the wind and/or sea picks up.
Snatchblock is to prevent chafe on the forward edge of the coachroof; if it fails the snubber still works.

I have seen yachts with a snubber running from the foredeck cleat. Might make things quieter when the tide turns and the chain drags over the seabed, but in a blow? Useless.
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Mine runs from the foredeck cleat but its still 9m long. No less useless than yours :)
 
I made myself a snubber this year, but only to reduce the banging as the boat sails across the wind and back at anchor and the chain jumps from side to side of the bow roller. I have never had any issues at all with the chain snatching in the direction of pull. I think that's because she is heavy for size with a long keel and curved stem, so there is lots of natural damping there. Snatching seems to be a particular feature of modern boats with vertical stems and flat hulls at the bow.
 
Stemar said:
It could be made to be with a rubber mooring snubber. My snubber's only about 1.5m, but works well with the rubber.
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A rubber mooring snubber, one of those dog bone things has the same snubbing qualities as 2m of nylon of the size to fit that snubber. great as a mooring snubber in a marina - a waste of money on a yacht at anchor, nylon is cheaper and lighter.

Both the late John Knox and I independently tested the dog bone things and independently came to the exact same conclusion.

Jonathan
 
One of the fears of long snubbers is that in water more shallow than the length of the snubber outboard then in light winds the snubber can fall off as it drags on the seabed. It is a very real concern and does happen, been there, done that. It is very easy to make a gate on a chain hook, which will solve the problem (but can be a bit of a faff to make and use). Most hooks with a gate, as supplied, the gates can be easily broken or bent (and then you cannot release the chain) - so be careful of what you buy (the Witchard hooks are a disgrace). The best hooks are from the lifting industry - but they are not galvanised - if enough of you winge to Geoff maybe he will add hooks to his Knox Anchor portfolio. Most of the hooks in chandlers - would be laughed at by the lifting industry and simply would not be allowed. If you can deform anchor chain, and a recent thread on CF indicates it happens - then many chain hooks sold to us will damage the chain.

I make our own hooks.

The alternative (to have a long snubber outboard) is to start the snubber, as has been mentioned, at the transom and run to the bow, in our case through the stanchion bases, and then to a turning block (you could use some form of barber haul system (LFRs come to mind) to direct the snubber over the bow to keep the feed straight and reduce abrasion. If this does not appeal as it clutters up your transom - start at a bow cleat, run to a turning block amidships and then back to the bow. Using this concept, or some sort of variant, you can reduce the snubber outboard to a metre or two - hopefully no chance of it touching the seabed :) . If you don't have hollow stanchion bases, through which to run the snubber - this is an application for all those soft shackles you have made.

We leave our snubbers (bridle) permanently attached. The hook is held 'above' the bow roller and hung off the cage of the headsail furler - so its all very convenient.

As Jumble Duck and NormanS define - the needs for snubbers with elasticity is not universal as many yachts can be stable at anchor, or made stable. Heavy displacement and long keels yachts seem much more stable - and when you get to a certain size of vessel the effects of shearing winds almost disappears. Fortunately/unfortunately most owners today own AWBs - which are flighty for lots of reasons, Jumble Duck articulates some - but adding real estate on and above the transom, a dinghy on the foredeck - all add to the reasons yachts yaw (and hobby horse). In a crowded and popular anchorage there can be lots of wash - hobby horsing is not restricted to wind driven waves and swell - and some waves generated by passing traffic can be much more damaging than those driven by wind (even on a larger vessel).


I noted the wrap on the knuckles over using a windlass to deploy a chain, to power down. - Some of us are far too young to know of all those traditional methods of anchor deployment (thank goodness). Windlass today, or most of them, are actually designed to allow power deployment - I (my Scots heritage shining through again) like to get value for money and use what we paid for :)

Jonathan
 
Neeves said:
A rubber mooring snubber, one of those dog bone things has the same snubbing qualities as 2m of nylon of the size to fit that snubber. great as a mooring snubber in a marina - a waste of money on a yacht at anchor, nylon is cheaper and lighter.

Both the late John Knox and I independently tested the dog bone things and independently came to the exact same conclusion.

Jonathan
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I rarely disagree with you but I will on this and your following post.

I use a dogbone next to the ungated hook on my anchor snubber. The dog bone allows lots of stretching for low and moderate force which is great when the chain is just 12m in 3m depth - fine with 3m snubber for 30ish top gusts and veering in a crowded anchorage. I can then extend the nylon snubber if the weather gets up and with the dogbone fully extended (much less often than you would think) the nylon warp provides the elasticity.

The ungated hook ensures that if I need to leave the anchorage the snubber falls off when the chain takes the strain which is vital as every second counts if boats are dragging down on you. Until then it can never come off as the first action after putting the snubber on is to release enough slack chain to loop down well below the water so the snubber always has lots of tension.
 
I like people that question dogma! :)

There is undoubtedly a common fault, of people like me, to forget that our experiences are simply not applicable to others (in depth, or shallow, knowledge of the performance of a catamaran is undoubtedly poor background to comment on the characteristics of a long keeled timber yacht). We, or least I, do try to remember that some people will not wish to sail a floating caravan (at tops of 16 knots) - for example - a crowded anchorage to me is a wide bay with 4 yachts. Over crowding is not that common for us.

The dogbone things are designed to have a length of rope wrapped round the central thin section. This wrap or wrapping, as its more than one turn, protects the dogbone from over stretching and breaking - very sensible. But the restriction also means the dogbone only works upto the allowance (of the manufacturer) - but nylon will stretch till it fails (which one may or not agree with). The doggone then has the same restriction as catenary - it has limited benefit - and when you need it - its gone (used all its stretch) and you rely on the stretch in the rope that you are using and within which you retain the dogbone. You are of course also using catenary - it does not stop working because you use a snubber - the snubber and dogbone extend the upper limits of the benefit of catenary.

Its a personal decision - I'd rather have another 2 metres of nylon rope.

I did not say they were useless - just expensive for what they are. My desire not to spend money unnecessarily rises, like cream, to the top - and may blind me to many benefits I have missed :(

If you do use an ungated hook and it is on the seabed then the weight of the loop between it and the bow roller will not impact the hook (or not much). Hooks do fall off. The solution is as you say - ensure that the hook cannot touch the seabed AND have that loop of slack chain between hook and bow roller. This then means you cannot have a long snubber - if the snubber commences at the bow and extends forward. I have noted that an increasing number (but still a minority) of people (they were like dragons teeth a few years ago) are using a decent length of snubber - getting to boat length - the issue of undated hooks falling off will not go away. I do accept that if you are a hurry a gated hook might delay the ability to detach it from a chain.

Jonathan

https://www.practical-sailor.com/blog/Can-a-Snubber-Hooks-Weaken-Your-Rode-12005-1.html

https://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/37_63/features/What-is-Ideal-Snubber-Size_11951-1.html
 
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You are right of course that the snubber with an ungated hook musn’t touch the seabed. That’s why I prefer a dogbone as first stretcher. I can’t think of a time when I’ve had to extend in shallow water in high winds and it’s then calmed enough to risk hitting the seabed but I need to think about options there. I am really surprised that you think a snubber is equivalent to 2m nylon. It’s will stretch far more under less tension so a 0.6m dogbone will go to 2m - which is closer to the stretch of a 7m nylon warp.
 
Rupert:

Possibly we are talking about different dog bones, in fact we must be (I have only seen about 3 suppliers) - but the ones available here have a maximum stretch, when assembled with rope in the locks at each end and the rope twisted round the neck (between the locks) have a elasticity of maybe 400mm (60% on our No 2) - but no-where near the over 300% you indicate. If you have dog bones (or rubber things) that can stretch 300% (0.6m - 2.0m) and have a reasonable life - I for one would be very interested as they are outside my knowledge base - they would certainly be much better than nylon - of any construction.

Possibly you can define the source?

This is the sort of 'dogbone' snubber I have tested

https://www.taylormadeproducts.com/cgi-bin/catalog.pl?item_id=76

If you 'instal' the rope correctly, as illustrated in the link, the extension is small - and restricted by the finite 'extra' length of rope provided by twisting round the thin part of the device - once you have reached the limit define by the extra length you then rely on the elasticity of the rope.

Specifically I tested this device

https://www.marinechandlery.com/forsheda-rubber-mooring-compensator-mooring-spring-or-snubber

and this link,

https://www.trelleborg.com/en/moulded-components/products--and--solutions/mooring--compensators

from the manufacturer of the Forsheda device, actually defines the extension possible.

Jonathan

edit

The maximum tension suggested for a Forsheda No 2 compensator is 250kg - which is the sort of tension on 45' yacht in a 5:1 rode at 30 knots and 6-7m depth. 250kg assumes you are not veering nor hobby horsing (chop) too much. 30 knots is coincidentally when a chain rode is looking straight - just the time, as the wind starts to gust to 35 knot, when you (and your anchor) start to need help from a snubber :(

Now you can extend more chain, if you have it and there is room - but.....

So if you have 'rubber' snubber that reliably offers more - I'd like to use one, or in our case two.
 
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I guess it's horses for courses. I have a mixed rode, 18m of 6mm chain plus a load of octoplait, with a 10Kg Delta on the end for a 24ft, ~3 ton boat. The snubber only gets used in shallow water when I don't have any rope out. If things are bad enough that a snubber becomes essential to avoid overstresssing things, I'll have enough rode out that several metres of stretchy octoplait is doing the job, and I won't be using the snubber which, being 12m nylon and a few years old, probably wouldn't be up to the job.

Truth be told, while as a confirmed pessimist, I want my kit to be up to the job, it's highly unlikely I'll be out in anything that bad. I lost my taste for that sort of adventure along with my hair a good few years ago.
 
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