Do you use an anchor snubber?

[A1Sailor]

How did you manage when yachts rarely had windlasses?

What technique did you use that did not involve you touching the chain?

That's a job for Roger the Cabin Boy.

 

[Uricanejack]

No.

 

[Neeves]

We don't stop for lunch.

When we anchor we use a bridle, always. We have a spare bridle, bridles, or one arm of - fail. if they are not failing (say every 2 years) then your bridle is not elastic enough.

The bridle is there to provide elasticity. As a back up we have a 'chain lock', ours is a claw attached to a very short dyneema strop and the dyneema secured to a strong point (not the windlass).

The clutch on the windlass is adjusted to allow the clutch to slip when we think it is overloaded - we do not alter that tension. If the anchor is so well set the clutch slips - we lock the chain with the short dyneema strop and claw (which we also use as back up for the anchor when at sea.

None of this is rocket science, none of it costs any money (the bridle is recycled climbing rope).

The bridle reduces veering (in the same way that anchoring in a 'V' reduces veering). It also absorbs the energy of the moving yacht - eliminating any snatch loads. Bridles would not be so effective on a smaller monohull - but might be advantageous on some with a bit of beam - and any that veer at anchor.

Short snubbers offer minimum elesticity, they take the load off the windlass, stop the chain rattling - but not much more. Our bridle arms are now 30m each side - seems about right for us.

Jonathan

 

[NormanS]

We don't stop for lunch.

When we anchor we use a bridle, always. We have a spare bridle, bridles, or one arm of - fail. if they are not failing (say every 2 years) then your bridle is not elastic enough.

The bridle is there to provide elasticity. As a back up we have a 'chain lock', ours is a claw attached to a very short dyneema strop and the dyneema secured to a strong point (not the windlass).

The clutch on the windlass is adjusted to allow the clutch to slip when we think it is overloaded - we do not alter that tension. If the anchor is so well set the clutch slips - we lock the chain with the short dyneema strop and claw (which we also use as back up for the anchor when at sea.

None of this is rocket science, none of it costs any money (the bridle is recycled climbing rope).

The bridle reduces veering (in the same way that anchoring in a 'V' reduces veering). It also absorbs the energy of the moving yacht - eliminating any snatch loads. Bridles would not be so effective on a smaller monohull - but might be advantageous on some with a bit of beam - and any that veer at anchor.

Short snubbers offer minimum elesticity, they take the load off the windlass, stop the chain rattling - but not much more. Our bridle arms are now 30m each side - seems about right for us.

Jonathan

Interesting to see the differences. We do stop for lunch. We try to sail only between meals, so we may anchor several times each day. The idea of rigging snubbers every time is anathema. Obviously we do do longer trips to get to places, and we may stay in the same place for a few days. We use an all chain rode. Jonathan, with your 30m snubbers, you have effectively a mixed rode, which with your light displacement, and weight sensitive catamaran, makes sense.

Interesting to read that you set your clutch so as to prevent overloading the windlass. How do you determine the correct setting for this? Ours is just a winged but, which is slackened off every time, to drop the anchor, and tightened up again once the desired length of chain is locked in the chain stopper, so that it is a backstop, and is also ready to heave in when required. I don't see how I could adjust it finely every time. Besides, I, or rather my wife, is perfectly capable of judging when to stop heaving, long before burning out the windlass.

Regarding yawing, our yacht is a ketch, so probably yaws much less than a light catamaran, but if we find it a problem, we rig our double sided anchor/riding sail.

We all have different ways of achieving the same result.

 

[LadyInBed]

Our bridle arms are now 30m each side - seems about right for us.

Jonathan

Do you deploy all 30mtrs?
What sort of depths are you anchoring in?
I tend to anchor in about 5mtrs of water and put out at least 30mtrs of chain (measured at water level). My 10mtr snubber hooks on at around the 20mtr chain mark if I'm putting out 30 and is made off on a spring cleat giving me about 2mtrs of slack on the deployed chain.

As said on the PBO thread, I wouldn't dream of putting the chain around the bow cleat, the clutch on the windlass is left tightened ready for lifting the anchor and the windlass chain (gipsy) lock is on. If conditions were very bad, I would consider putting on a line to secure the chain to the bow cleat, but I would be much more likely to be putting out more chain and extending the snubber.

 

[geem]

Interesting to see the differences. We do stop for lunch. We try to sail only between meals, so we may anchor several times each day. The idea of rigging snubbers every time is anathema. Obviously we do do longer trips to get to places, and we may stay in the same place for a few days. We use an all chain rode. Jonathan, with your 30m snubbers, you have effectively a mixed rode, which with your light displacement, and weight sensitive catamaran, makes sense.

Interesting to read that you set your clutch so as to prevent overloading the windlass. How do you determine the correct setting for this? Ours is just a winged but, which is slackened off every time, to drop the anchor, and tightened up again once the desired length of chain is locked in the chain stopper, so that it is a backstop, and is also ready to heave in when required. I don't see how I could adjust it finely every time. Besides, I, or rather my wife, is perfectly capable of judging when to stop heaving, long before burning out the windlass.

Regarding yawing, our yacht is a ketch, so probably yaws much less than a light catamaran, but if we find it a problem, we rig our double sided anchor/riding sail.

We all have different ways of achieving the same result.

We also sail a ketch but always use a snubber. Our ketch weighs 18/19 tonnes loaded. We never have an issue with load on the windlass as it only gets loaded when hauling up chain. It also has a 1700w motor and weighs 55kg. The snubber takes any load off the windlass at anchor. The snubber keeps things quiet at the bow. No chain noise. There are a few times when we have been in situations when we have been taking waves over the bow at anchor. The stretch in the snubber has to be seen to be believed as the bow goes up and down. In this situation I think the snubber helps to keep the anchor set rather than allowing the bow of the boat to snatch the anchor out as it rises to the waves.

 

[RogerJolly]

Am puzzled as to how do you get a sudden shock loading on the anchor chain such that a snubber can help.

As the boat moves, first comes resistance from the weight of the chain is it’s lifted off the bottom, then comes resistance from straightening the catenary out, so you get a gradually increasing tension rather than a sudden snatch.

That’s my analysis and experience anyway.

 

[RupertW]

Am puzzled as to how do you get a sudden shock loading on the anchor chain such that a snubber can help.

As the boat moves, first comes resistance from the weight of the chain is it’s lifted off the bottom, then comes resistance from straightening the catenary out, so you get a gradually increasing tension rather than a sudden snatch.

That’s my analysis and experience anyway.

With any noticeable wind the catenary gets so close to a straight line that every extra cm takes a ludicrously high extra force so you are effectively anchored to an iron bar. And certainly on my boat which veers about, there is a jolt as the veer reverses. We use a snubber and I see it stretching clearly at each reverse.

 

[UK-WOOZY]

how did the boat in the video get its heavy duty looking chainplate ripped out, i gather the keel was damaged by the "rescue" people towing the boat off the reef. Did they also rip out the chainplate as the tow line was on the mast? seemed like the boat would have been fine before it got towed

 

[scrambledegg]

I also wondered why the chainplate ripped out. I could not see any tow line attached to the top of the mast. It looks like they were simply dragging the boat sideways towards deeper water by means of a bridle attached to both bow and stern and somewhere central on the boat. Probably this central line was attached to the bottom of a shroud, and, because of the geometry, taking the majority of the pull force.
Perhaps it would have made more sense to lean the boat over by a line to the top of the mast. Perhaps not if the boat was already badly holed, leaning it wouldn't then have made any difference because whatever you do the boat is putting its full weight on the keel.
If I was in that situation I think I would have at least tried to plug the hole and pump the boat out before trying to drag her off, but we don't know what was actually available.

 

[Graham376]

With any noticeable wind the catenary gets so close to a straight line that every extra cm takes a ludicrously high extra force so you are effectively anchored to an iron bar. And certainly on my boat which veers about, there is a jolt as the veer reverses. We use a snubber and I see it stretching clearly at each reverse.

+1
When a boat veers from one tack to the other in a wind over tide situation, the shock loads as it's pulled up hard can break the anchor out, as we saw with a cat which eventually rammed the bank in the Guadiana one time, the crew only then appeared above deck looking around like a bunch of meerkats. Snubber greatly reduces the shock and may have stopped that happening.

 

[NormanS]

We also sail a ketch but always use a snubber. Our ketch weighs 18/19 tonnes loaded. We never have an issue with load on the windlass as it only gets loaded when hauling up chain. It also has a 1700w motor and weighs 55kg. The snubber takes any load off the windlass at anchor. The snubber keeps things quiet at the bow. No chain noise. There are a few times when we have been in situations when we have been taking waves over the bow at anchor. The stretch in the snubber has to be seen to be believed as the bow goes up and down. In this situation I think the snubber helps to keep the anchor set rather than allowing the bow of the boat to snatch the anchor out as it rises to the waves.

On the West Coast of Scotland, we have no need to anchor in places like that . We can get plenty of wind, and sometimes there's no shelter from the wind, but we can always find good shelter from the sea.

 

[noelex]

On the West Coast of Scotland, we have no need to anchor in places like that . We can get plenty of wind, and sometimes there's no shelter from the wind, but we can always find good shelter from the sea.

Norman, you have it all wrong. Apparently it is supposed to be easy to avoid plenty of wind when at anchor .

 

[RichardS]

Short snubbers offer minimum elesticity, they take the load off the windlass, stop the chain rattling - but not much more. Our bridle arms are now 30m each side - seems about right for us.

Jonathan

Crikey! We sometimes don't even put out 30m of chain. :ambivalence:

The two arms of our bridle are only 3 or 4 metres each side.

Richard

 

[geem]

On the West Coast of Scotland, we have no need to anchor in places like that . We can get plenty of wind, and sometimes there's no shelter from the wind, but we can always find good shelter from the sea.

Different kind of weather I guess. We got a near miss from a super cell in the Bahamas last year. This frantic storm caused high winds near us but we didnt see too much wind, say 20kts, but we got the swell from the storm. Our anchorage which looked nice and safe initially, turned in to on shore winds and big swell for about two hours. We had reefs near us and it was dark so we did anchor watch and stayed put. The other occasion last year was in Bocas del Torro in Panama. Violent thunder storm in the middle of the night. Heavy rain, fork lightning and reefs everywhere. The swell came in through the narrow opening down a small sound where the swell built quickly. Another couple of hours on anchor watch. It was safer than risking moving in the night for better shelter. The snubber in these situations is an essential for us. Ours is 9m long 16mm, three strand plus a rubber snubber on a 13.4m boat. It works.

 

[Neeves]

Crikey! We sometimes don't even put out 30m of chain.

The two arms of our bridle are only 3 or 4 metres each side.

end quote


But sometimes you do deploy 50, or 60m because the seabed falls away sharply from shore or there is no space close to shore, or its noisy or busy.

Our beam is 6.67m - 2 x 3m bridle pieces might join in straight line - and would certainly not offer a 'V'.

Richard - you are in good company - most catamaran bridles are too short, too big (commonly 20mm or 25mm diameter) and offer no elasticity at all. When you veer the tension on the bridle is on one arm, that 4m length of 20mm cord. People here who use snubbers for elasticity would smile at the idea - that a 4m x 20mm snubber would offer any elasticity.

The use of elasticity in snubbers is gaining traction in monohulls - not in multihulls - multihulls have been left in the dark ages. Some monohulls don't veer very much and are not impacted by chop - but newer yachts (AWBs) where all extra weight has been squeezed out by the accountants are flighty and do suffer from chop, swell - and veering (often all combined)

This was sent to me overnight - it is definitely extreme - but look at how the yachts lie side on to the wind - in lighter winds exactly the same happens - snatch loads do happen. Look how the yachts hobby horse in chop.

Yes I know its extreme - but I was not sent a vid of benign conditions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=w2tdO1LJR3Y

If you read back in the posts on this thread you will find people mentioning they can see their snubbers stretching - I'll put money on it - not one of them is using a 4m x 20mm snubber. I'll also put money on the fact - you cannot see your bridle stretching, at all. You could replace your bridle with 12mm dyneema - and not notice the difference.

I don't know what size of chain you are using - maybe 8mm or 10mm. We are using 6mm chain and have sacrificed the benefits of catenary to save weight (if you use 10mm chain - and some of the cats like ours do carry 10mm chain) then we have saved about 200kg of rode weight - that's 2 beefy men standing on the bow 24/7. We compensate for that loss of catenary with 30m of snubber. Another big difference - catenary offers diminishing returns - with a normal rode length (dictated by what others in the anchorage might deploy and/or the size of the anchorage in 5m of water) then at about 30 knots you have used all the benefits of catenary - nylon works until it fails - so we have 'some' catenary offering some energy absorbing characteristics to 30 knots and then - more. Because we carry 30m snubbers - a lot more.

Geem's post crossed mine - a perfect example. You make all the right decisions but due to inadequate knowledge - you get it wrong (how do you predict an unforecastable storm cell (been there done that - 55 knots for 8 hours is not a bundle of laughs). Geem is set up for unforeseen circumstances - and my guess is finds that it is a constant learning process. People scoff - like the people who were the subject of the original video that sparked this thread.

As mentioned in previous threads - our snubbers (bridle) start at cockpit sheet winches (we can increase or reduce snubber length) pass to a transom mounted block (spinnaker block) through a clutch (we can free up the winch), to the bow and then to a chain hook. Over 10m of our snubber (bridle) is 'within' the vessel and only that we deploy beyond the bow extends further forward (which the chain does anyway). Our use of the deck length to 'hide' some of our bridle length is quite common now - its really quite accepted. Some run only from the amidships cleat and have a fixed length - there are many ways to skin a rabbit.

Of our 30m bridle some is 'lost' as it needs to be round the winch drum to allow us to alter length - we don't always use it all. Its hardy a novel idea - you carry extra chain some of which you seldom use. You have headsail sheets and half the time one is not used (but you could easily use just one sheet - as is done with a self tacking headsail - its just a bit of lateral thinking.

As Norman says - we effectively have a mixed rode.

Richard - your cat is a bit bigger than ours and ours has the windage of a 45' modern AWB (I compared from full drawings with a Bav 45) - my guess is you might have the windage of a 50' AWB. You do not have a big keel offering some resistance to movement nor that massive ballast (possibly) reducing the speed of a veer. You might not anchor in deeper water and maybe your anchorages are all secure, from chop and swell - then your rode arrangement is fine.

I have measured, I have a load cell, 650kg snatch loads in 35 knots with chop - without a bridle at short scope - the scope you indicate you use - I'm glad to have an elastic bridle.

Jonathan

 

[sailaboutvic]

Hasn't it cross any one mind that as a full time cruiser it a very unusual mistake to make ,
I can understand charters and weekend sailors do so but a full time liveaboard / cruiser
I can only imagine he got distracted which is why we keep the snubber with the anchor contro .
You can only feel sorry for the guy , he not only lost his boat but his home too .

 

[Neeves]

Interesting to read that you set your clutch so as to prevent overloading the windlass. How do you determine the correct setting for this? Ours is just a winged but, which is slackened off every time, to drop the anchor, and tightened up again once the desired length of chain is locked in the chain stopper, so that it is a backstop, and is also ready to heave in when required. I don't see how I could adjust it finely every time. Besides, I, or rather my wife, is perfectly capable of judging when to stop heaving, long before burning out the windlass.

We all have different ways of achieving the same result.

We deploy differently, or Josephine does.

We power drop our anchor, I note you simply release the clutch and allow gravity to do all the work. We only use the windlass with engines running (we are going to power set (chain lock on - NOT the snubber) so if the engine re running we have plenty of power.

Our windlass is under the deck sitting on a plinth at the top of a locker. But having a windlass below the deck gives clean decks, nothing to trip over (and part of the chain run, is also under the deck). The downside is the windlass being below the deck is uncomfortable to work on manually as you have stretch down and into the locker to release the clutch using a winch handle. Its easier and safer to stand up, press a foot switch and watch the chain markers run out - it also ensures the deployment is not so fast we don't end up with a pyramid of chain on the seabed - if I'm completing my responsibility and allowing us to fall back and 'roughly' stretch the chain out in a long line.

Because we mechanically deploy we can set our clutch and subsequently never touch it.

The clutch is set by trial and error - except it was originally set to release at about 200kg tension (2,000 rev on both engines) - and roughly that is the tension at which the clutch will release.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

Do you deploy all 30mtrs?
What sort of depths are you anchoring in?
I tend to anchor in about 5mtrs of water and put out at least 30mtrs of chain (measured at water level). My 10mtr snubber hooks on at around the 20mtr chain mark if I'm putting out 30 and is made off on a spring cleat giving me about 2mtrs of slack on the deployed chain.

Of that 30m approximately 10m is down each sidedeck and a few metres we need to have sufficient to wrap round a winch and a tail. We also need about 5m (each side) to go from each bow to the common chain hook - the 5m is not a straight run, it has to go under the bobstays back to the bow roller, up through the bow roller and then clipped onto the furler drum.

We would normally deploy 15/20m - the rest is stored at the transom in a 'sheet' or 'halyard' bag hung on the lifelines.

We have 2m tides and normally we aim to anchor in min depth of 5m (closer to shore - the waves can be starting to build up making it rolly). How much do we deploy varies but over night from 5:1 to 8:1 depends on the forecast - the more we deploy - the more snubber we use. If it is forecast to blow 35 knots - if there is room - we would happily deploy 50m and all the snubber - that's why we carry it

But we also anchor in 11m depths, and deploy 60m of chain and all the snubber. Horses for courses.

And then we complicate all of this and to further reduce veering we will deploy a second anchor in a 'V' - though usually we would only do this if intending to stay more than one night.

Note: we are using 6mm chain and our anchors are all aluminium alloy of around 7kg weight, each - and we have the windage of a 45' AWB.

Jonathan

 

[A1Sailor]

We deploy differently, or Josephine does.

We power drop our anchor, I note you simply release the clutch and allow gravity to do all the work. We only use the windlass with engines running (we are going to power set (chain lock on - NOT the snubber) so if the engine re running we have plenty of power.

Our windlass is under the deck sitting on a plinth at the top of a locker. But having a windlass below the deck gives clean decks, nothing to trip over (and part of the chain run, is also under the deck). The downside is the windlass being below the deck is uncomfortable to work on manually as you have stretch down and into the locker to release the clutch using a winch handle. Its easier and safer to stand up, press a foot switch and watch the chain markers run out - it also ensures the deployment is not so fast we don't end up with a pyramid of chain on the seabed - if I'm completing my responsibility and allowing us to fall back and 'roughly' stretch the chain out in a long line.

Because we mechanically deploy we can set our clutch and subsequently never touch it.

The clutch is set by trial and error - except it was originally set to release at about 200kg tension (2,000 rev on both engines) - and roughly that is the tension at which the clutch will release.

Jonathan

What size of vessel do you deploy from? "About Me" in your profile only says:

Occupation:
Freelance Marine Journalist